Music Credit: “Some Are More Equal.” Composed and performed by Paul Rucker and Hans Teuber, from the album, Oil. Rachel Howzell: Crime novels was it. I was initially scared of even writing a procedural because I’m not a cop. I’m nothing in law enforcement. So it was very scary the thought of it. But I got over that fear when I was 33 years old and pregnant and I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And after overcoming that and getting an all clear from my doctors, I knew what fear was. The fear of writing a story where I could interview cops and interview coroner’s assistants and going on Google and finding answers to this it became less arduous. I was no longer scared. Jo Reed: That’s author Rachel Howzell Hall and this is Art Works, the weekly podcast produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed. Author Rachel Howzell Hall writes detective fiction. That’s not unusual. What’s unusual is that her main character—like Rachel herself- is an African American woman. Police Detective Eloise Norton-- Lou –as she’s called—is smart, driven and attractive, but she’s not even close to perfect. She has flaws, and she has failures, but she keeps on keeping on. Norton polices in a part of south Los Angeles known as “The Jungle”—an area she knows well—it’s where she was raised. At one point she hoped to become a lawyer, but she failed the bar and then turned to police work—just trying to “do right by the regular folk “who still live and work in South L.A. Rachel Howzell Hall introduced Lou Norton to the world in 2014 in the book Land of Shadows. Hall received praise from critics, readers, and her fellow mystery writers. Since then two other Lou Norton books have been published. The recent one is called Trail of Echoes and Rachel has a fourth book on the way. Not bad for a mother who also has a full time job. And it lead me to wonder when exactly does she actually write? Rachel Howzell: I get up at five thirty every morning – it’s a little kind of free write exercise where as I’m getting my stuff together on the dining room table I look at what I’ve written the day before. And I make notes right, I make notes of what I want to accomplish that day, thoughts that came through me at one – two o'clock in the morning. And I get to work and I do my day job until lunch time. And I go to my car at lunch time. And for that hour I write. I write, write, write. And it comes out concentrated because I haven’t had any other time to do this. So it comes out an hour later. I go back to work. And if my daughter has soccer or volleyball practice, I write in the car as she’s kicking a ball somewhere. And my first drafts are always long hand because one I love the feel of pen against paper. And two it's just more convenient on a schedule like mine where I’m doing it on the fly a lot of times and pen and pad is just more accessible. I don’t have to worry about batteries. That’s my schedule. I get up early do some prewriting. Write at lunch time. Write at the soccer field and just keeping doing it. Sundays I get up at five thirty and I write until nine. And that’s pretty much it. You know with a day job and with a writing day job, fortunately, I have a great muscle so I can kind of write on demand so that helps. And knowing also that I don’t have much time I’m not very precious with writer’s block or anything like that. I have to do it. I want this. And I want to finish this. And it's in some ways I always dream about oh writing novels full time, how great that would be. But I fear losing that kind of muscle, losing that ability to write for an hour and then pick it up for twenty minutes here and there. Jo Reed: I want you to tell me about Lou Norton, who is she? And what makes her tick? Rachel Howzell Hall: Lou Norton in many ways is me. She’s just braver, taller. Cares more about making a direct impact on life in the neighborhood she grew up in. She grew up working class in Los Angeles in a part of town called the Crenshaw District. She was very bright. And she was that kid who couldn’t play with the neighbors because her parents were very wary of what those kids were doing. And still, though, she suffered loss. Her sister, her older sister Tori was kidnapped and then her father left her and her mother alone. And so she grew up in a fatherless home for the formative years of her life, thirteen on. She grew up very wary of people but she grew up with purpose. She wants justice, so she goes to school. She’s one of those kids that get out of their circumstances and gets an education and she tries to pass the bar but she can’t do that. But law is in her blood and justice is a part of her and so she joins the LAPD. She’s very mission driven. She’s a part of two worlds: the world of education and black progression. But she still goes back to her home, her neighborhood that she grew up in because for one, that’s where she polices. And two, that’s where her heart lies. She wants to help those who are struggling, who remind her of her family, of herself. Jo Reed: You know, place and community are so important in your books. They almost serve as another character and the Crenshaw District is an actual neighborhood in L.A. Tell me more about it. Rachel Howzell Hall: The Crenshaw District is called “The Jungle” but not because initially of a race thing but because back in the day in the sixties it was a place that had lots of banana palms, and green things and it was really lush. And so the nickname it was called “The Jungle.” Then gang members starting come in and PCP, Angel Dust, and all of that and so the name, “The Jungle” took on a different tone. And so Lou grew up in that part where the gang members came and the drug dealing in the allies behind her apartment. So I wanted the neighborhoods to reflect her life and her upbringings and how she sees herself, that kind of duality where she’s kind of like Jenny from the block. She’s Lou from the ‘hood. But she likes her red bottoms. And she likes her purses and her education and all of the rest of it. Jo Reed: As you said, you and Lou are similar, and you grew up in L.A. Did you grow up in the same part of Los Angeles where you place Lou’s childhood? Rachel Howzell Hall: Yes. I grew up in the uh – the same neighborhood. Lou could have been like my BFF if she wanted. So yes, I grew up in that part of Los Angeles. And I’m still not far at all from where I grew up. I just live on the other side of the hill. And so I pass it every day. I pass my childhood home and I remember, the wonderful things about being in that neighborhood. The apartments were big. And I had a view of the Hollywood Hills from my kitchen window. But then back you go to sleep sometimes with the sound of the police helicopters thundering outside of your bedroom window. And people getting shot in the alleyways. But it was a weird upbringing because inside our apartment there was peace. There were plenty of books and music and things to do. My mother never let us say the word bored. So we were always busy with something. But then like in Trail of Echoes there were those mean girls outside who resented you and they thought you thought you were better than them. And so it was strange because you went to school with some of these same girls but you didn’t talk to them. You just kind of existed around them. So, you know, L.A. is that way. It’s a weird wonderful place. And I love writing about it. And revisiting memories of growing up in certain parts of it. Jo Reed: Tell me a little bit of the story of Trail of Echoes. It’s the third book in your series that features Elouise Norton. Rachel Howzell Hall: Trail of Echoes is a story about girls, girls coming of age and people paying attention to those girls. It’s a story about Lou thinking and remembering coming of age in Los Angeles. And her sister disappearing when she was sixteen. It’s about girls who are exceptional and who are resented for their gifts. And who are trying to get out using their gifts but are stopped in the middle of their journey. And it’s about Lou remembering that she was one of those girls but she was a lucky one. She got out and she’s still here whereas, her sister Tori did not. And so it is almost a lament in some ways of being a young woman of color in the big city. And while I was writing it watching my own daughter and hoping for the best, and praying for the best, it is kind of recognizing that, again, no matter how hard you try sometimes your kids become victims. And in this story, yes, there is a predator out there who is collecting what he calls muses. Jo Reed: Hence the talented girls he’s collecting. Rachel Howzell Hall: Yes, the talented girls who stick out. You know it’s weird. It’s like that gospel song about hiding your light under a bushel. And, you know, wondering if you want your kid to stand out because who is looking? Who resents them? Who wants to stop them? And so the book also delves into bullying of teens against teens. And I remember when I heard about this YouTube video. This is way back when YouTube became a thing and kids had captured on tape them beating up another kid. And this is like way before it became a phenomenon. This is like one of the first cases where they’re recording kids beating up each other and taping it. And it bothered me because yeah, we had kids getting jumped after school and in the playground and it’s not a new thing, but to actually record it and kind of rejoice in it, it was unsettling. And so the story came out of me being unsettled about this weird rejoicing of violence and bullying. And how an adult would react to this and how an adult remembers either being on the bullying side or the kid being kicked in the head. Jo Reed: I want to talk a little bit about the expression that you use throughout the book of “getting out.” And what does getting out mean for Lou? And I’m curious what getting out means for you personally. Rachel Howzell Hall: Well, getting out for Lou, it’s weird because yes, she succeeded. She got her education. She married and divorced a successful man who he has his own problems and his own types of addictions. But she succeeded and that’s what getting out means. That you don’t succumb to the poverty, the downward spiral. And for me it’s the same thing where I feel like that I got my education and, besides writing, kind of mission driven work and succeeding. You know, claiming my American dream. But for Lou and for me, again, you don’t entirely leave it because you still live nearby. You still go to the same grocery store. You still have friends or family or for me readers who are still there in those neighborhoods. And that doesn’t mean that they’ve not succeeded but they’re there. And you don’t want to ever kind of leave them there. You want to kind of still be either an anchor or a handout or someone who says, yeah, you’re there but you’re smart and this isn’t it for you. You are more than your area. And that’s why I think Lou still like policing there because she does recognize that there are families there who are noble and who are progressive and just can’t afford to be anywhere else. And that’s a thing in Los Angeles and in many big cities. You just can’t afford to leave some of those areas that aren’t terribly healthy for you. So while we’re getting out we’re not leaving it behind, it’s still very much a part of us. Jo Reed: What made you want to write detective fiction or crime fiction? Rachel Howzell Hall: I’ve always been fascinated by the dark. I remember writing stories in tenth grade and they’re always dark and a little cynical. And my teachers absolutely hated it. And so I kind of trolled them sometime and wrote overly saccharine unicorn rainbow stories just to get a kick and to get my grade. But growing up the way I did and being just that art kid I was always interested in motivations and why people do the way they do. I’m a gamer. So even in my video gaming I play roleplaying games and I look for treasure chests and I love that kind of stuff. So I like the mystery. I like discovery. And so I wanted to combine my natural interest and curiosity with writing. And with mystery you have this luxury of being artful and also commercial. You get the chance to straddle two worlds of art. And I wanted to write something that I wanted to read myself so mysteries was it. I was initially scared of even writing a procedural because I’m not a cop. I’m nothing in law enforcement. Right now, I work at the Pancreatic Cancer Action Network. I write fundraising material. So it was very scary the thought of it. But I got over that fear when I was 33 years old and pregnant and I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And so here I am four months pregnant and I need to have all of these surgeries to save my life and signing things that say that my baby may not make it through all of my surgeries. And after overcoming that and getting an all clear from my doctors, I knew what fear was. I knew what it was to be truly scared of something. And that was dying. So after being confronted with something like that, the fear of writing a story where I could interview cops and interview coroner’s assistants and going on Google and finding answers to this it became less arduous. I was no longer scared. And after experiencing that I took stock of my life. It’s like, well, what do I want to do in my life? Because here I am a cancer survivor at 37, life isn’t guaranteed. So I might as well kind of do what I want to do and writing a mystery was one of those things I wanted to do. And so I would say cancer made me do this. It forced me to prioritize things in my life that I wanted to get done before leaving the world. Jo Reed: Well, I’m glad you did and I’m glad you’re fine. And I’m assuming your daughter is fine too. Rachel Howzell Hall: She is fine. She’ll be thirteen on the twentieth. So we always have a big party because it’s a celebration. It’s her birthday and it's my survivor-hood. So we are very blessed and we look at the book thing as just icing on the cake, writing about things that I’ve seen and people that I’ve met. And turning it into something like putting it in a mystery form. Mysteries are great. You get to talk about very, very heavy things in an entertaining way. Jo Reed: Exactly. That’s exactly what I was going to say because what I honestly think that if you’re really interested in knowing what’s going on with people who actually have to work for a living or people who are poor, you better be reading crime fiction because that’s the only place you’re really going to find it. Rachel Howzell Hall: Yes. Yes. I totally agree. And that’s what brought me to this type of literature. Just as a reader myself you look forward to seeing how is Michael Connelly going to handle this? How is Walter Mosely addressing race? How is Attica Locke? What is she doing with Texas? And how is their crime the same as ours here in Los Angeles? It is a wonderful medium to address social issues. And for me to write basically 80 to 90,000 words I have to be pretty bothered about something that’s going on in the world right now to even get that through that slog, especially since I still work full time. And so with Los Angeles especially and with crime I will never run out of ideas. So yeah, crime and mystery is a great place to get an understanding of what’s going on in the world. Jo Reed: So you find that having a day job is helpful for your writing. Rachel Howzell Hall: I write for a cancer organization. And since I’m not a scientist I take that information, cancer research, and I make it into easy to understand language for potential donors. So knowing how to do that helps with crime writing, with all of the forensics and taking these complex ideas and boiling them down to their most simple, most interesting points. So that helps. And also I need to know how people act and I can’t do that in my you know – in my house, in my living room, so just being around people every day and hearing how they talk and learning about things from you know, the younger folks. I wouldn’t have known what a Snapchat was if I was at home. You know so being around people is a very important thing when you’re a writer, especially when you’re a mystery writer who relies on the patois of the people around you for great dialogue. I want my words to sound like people actually kind of said them. So work helps with that. And getting a regular paycheck takes the pressure of having to be creative. Jo Reed: I was just going to say that. I mean it is really, really hard to support yourself in any art form, including writing. And people often have, I think-- often can make the assumption oh she has four books published, she has it made. And, of course, it’s a great thing. You have four books published. They’ve been well received. People love Lou Norton. But – it’s hard. Rachel Howzell Hall: It is. It is hard. And especially if there are things you want to do in life. I like not cooking on the weekends. And I like going out to dinner. And I like being able to pay my bills without stressing out. And in the economy you never know what’s going to happen, wso it’s nice to be able to say, hmm, I have a little in the bank in the event something goes wrong. And that, again, just less pressure. And as again as a cancer survivor I need a little less stress in my life. It’s already quite stressful with you know, world affairs and raising a teenager, and L.A. traffic. I don’t need one more thing that I can actually control and that is work. And I like it. I like the mission that the organizations that I have work for. I like giving back in that way. It informs my writing in other ways other than economics. It’s helping to improve the lives of patients and families who are facing devastating illnesses. I feel good that I can lend my talents for something other than me. And my daughter is watching. I want her to value work. And I want her to see that you can have a job and you can do other things besides that. She sees that I get up early. And she sees me writing away on the weekends. And she knows that I work hard. And yet I’m happy. And I love it. I wouldn’t give it up for anything. And so knowing that she’s seeing me, it makes me feel good that if she’s going to do something beyond what’s expected, she knows that she can do it. Jo Reed: Lou is an African-American homicide detective. Rachel Howzell Hall: Mm-Hm. Jo Reed: And I think, I don’t know I could be wrong, but I think she could be the only African-American detective carrying a series at the moment. Rachel Howzell Hall: I believe you’re right. There are older series. Valerie Wilson Wesley’s work – well she’s a PI. But I cannot think of any other-- no. I am a unicorn in that sense. But I hope – I’m hoping that changes. Jo Reed: In creating that character and her interactions were there things that you were pretty conscious of she could do, she couldn’t do? Rachel Howzell Hall: Definitely. Definitely. You know, in a lot of novels written by men there’s always the lone wolf. You know, Harry Bosch is a lone wolf. Jo Reed: Right, the guy who goes rogue. Rachel Howzell Hall: Right, he goes rogue and talks back to his boss. And knowing that white men can get away with things that black women cannot I took that sensibility into writing my character. She won’t have the same privileges as her male counterparts. That’s just not how it is. And if she does go off, then she’s aware of how she looks and how she sounds and what they may perceive her to be. So I took real life and I wrote her as someone who is conscientious, someone who is a believer in community, and someone who knows that using honey gets people to do more than having vinegar. It’s just sometimes you use what you go to get what you want, is the old saying. And she has friends and boyfriends and mom – because we’re a community. We can’t afford to be lone wolves in our lives. We need as many people rallying behind us as possible. Jo Reed: And her friendships are really important. Rachel Howzell Hall: Her friendships are really important. Her friends are the only place, really, where she can kick back and whine and drink and have barbecue ribs because she doesn’t have to be the representative of black womanhood when she’s with her girlfriends. She can just be. Jo Reed: Violence occurs in your books, but mercifully you don’t indulge in it and you don’t show it happening. We see the results. But that has to be a conscious decision on your part. Rachel Howzell Hall: It is a conscious decision. I don’t like torture porn. I don’t like reveling in lots of blood and guts and it makes me uncomfortable as a reader. I will read it but I'm not appreciating it. I don't think you have to go that far into getting someone to understand what has happened. And I am aware that many readers are like me and they don’t need that. So I decided, I’m not going to go there. I don’t think it adds anything. I’m more interested in the relationships and the dualities of people than in the color of blood. I’m already dealing with dropping F-bombs here and there. I’m more language than anything. So if anything gets blue it’s how my characters speak. Jo Reed: What did you learn through writing these books, about writing, and also about that neighborhood you know so well? Rachel Howzell Hall: What did I learn? I learned about writing that-- hmm. I learned that nothing is ever as simple as it seems. On its face crime writing seems linear in many ways. There’s a body. You find the body. You have a red herring here and then you solve it. And while it looks easy, it’s not easy at all. You have a case. And you have to care about this case. And you have to figure out the social implications of this. And I learned that you’re reflecting real life and that death isn’t anything to laugh about. Lives have been changed forever. And as I’m writing these people that I’m writing about, they feel real to me. And I’ve learned that I’m scared of this stuff. There are moments when I don’t want to write about something and it shows in my earlier drafts. And my husband will call me out on it and he tells me, “You need to go deeper. You need to pull that back some and go for it.” It does scare me. And I’ve gotten to see that I’m not all that hard when it comes to crime writing because I do get scared. I learned that I love the city more than I thought I did. And to, to write about people who help cops. And who want to see justice done. And even with Lou who -- she’s a detective but even she is wary of law enforcement sometimes. So I’ve learned that crime novels have a place in reporting what’s going on. So I’ve learned that it’s a very powerful medium, crime writing, especially crime writing in cities. Jo Reed: And the next book is called… Rachel Howzell Hall: City of Saviors. And that will be out August 8^th of this year and I’m looking forward to it. Jo Reed: Wow. You are really prolific. Rachel Howzell Hall: Yeah. And I’m actually co-writing a novella with James Patterson. I’m doing one of the new BookShots short stories with him, so I am getting a lot of work and trying different types of writing. Short stories are hard. You know, novelists, we like the sprawl of a novel of all of those 300 pages. But with BookShots, you’re three to five pages and then you’re on to the next scene. So once again, my muscle is being worked in different ways. Jo Reed: Well, I’ll look forward to it. Rachel, thank you so much. Rachel Howzell Hall: Thank you. This was great talking about books and Los Angeles, my favorite subjects. Jo Reed: That’s Rachel Howzell Hall—she’s author of the Eloise Norton detective series. The latest book of Trail of Echoes. You've been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. To find out how art works in communities across the country, keep checking the Art Works blog, or follow us @NEAARTS on Twitter. For the National Endowment for the Arts, I'm Josephine Reed. Thanks for listening.