Music Credit: “Foreric Piano Study,” composed and performed by Todd Barton from the album Metascapes

(Music Up)

Rob Meyer: Occasionally, you get to actually live your dreams a little bit. And you try to really enjoy that, because you're probably not going to make a million movies. So, you better enjoy the times that you have where you have this amazing crew and cast and producers all kind of helping you with this dream.

Jo Reed: That is film director Rob Meyer and this is Art Works the weekly podcast produced at the National Endowment for the Arts, I’m Josephine Reed.

Rob Meyer is a young independent filmmaker who enjoys telling quiet stories. And so far, they happen to focus on kids who are coming of age. Meyer found his most recent film in Annie Howell’s semi-autobiographical script, Little Boxes. Little Boxes tells the story of a bi-racial family who move from Brooklyn to Rome, Washington. Gina (played by Melanie Lynskey), is white and a photographer, and her husband Mack (played by Nelsan Ellis) is black and a writer. Their son Clark, played by Armani Jackson, is about to start the sixth grade. They make the move because Gina has been offered a tenure-track job with health insurance. So, off they go to a totally white town across the country. But the reaction they incur isn’t hostile; it’s awkward. Nobody can believe Gina would move from New York or that Mack doesn’t really sound black and is published novelist—the bookstore immediately orders his book. This tight-knit family finds they weren’t quite prepared for the change and they soon find themselves struggling to understand themselves and each other in their new context. And according to Director Rob Meyer, Little Boxes is also about the assumptions we all make.

Rob Meyer: The assumptions about different parts of the country, about different socio-economic groups, different regions, race. It’s about issues of coming of age and sexuality and family dynamics all wrapped up in one family dramedy.

Jo Reed: This was the summer before Clark, who's the child in the film, that it's the summer before sixth grade, which is such an odd time in a kid's life.

Rob Meyer: Yes, so, yeah. Clark, who's played by Armani Jackson is I think 11 turning 12 and it's a super awkward time. You're just coming to realize who you are. You're stepping outside the definition your parents gave you potentially. You're starting to have your own taste in music and culture and sports and girls or boys. You're just learning who you are. And yet, you're in no way equipped to handle all of the things that are getting thrown at you, especially in Clark's case, if you're the one kind of biracial kid in a very white community. So, yeah he's up against a lot. And that was definitely the seed of the film's idea was Clark's story. It originally was much more a strict coming of age film about this kid. And as the script evolved, the parents became larger characters.

Jo Reed: I just want to stick with Clark for a minute, because at that age, I think it's especially hard when you have parents like his parents like Mack and, oh God, I just forgot her name. I just want to stick with Clark for a minute, because at that age, I think it's especially hard when you have parents like his parents, like Mack and like Gina, who are kinda cool parents. Because when you want to identify yourself, you do it by pushing away from your parents. But if your parents are kind of cool, it really puts you in a dilemma.

Rob Meyer: Right. You have to rebel against your super cultured, progressive, cool parents, who have great taste in music and are already into interesting things and are not in any way boring. But he--yeah, he embraces more mainstream kind of culture that both of his parents look down on. But his feeling is, "Well, I can make my own choices." And, yeah, it's definitely a period that is really fun for me to dig into. I like working with young actors. It’s a very specific and short period. And you basically haven't quite learned how to lie to the world in the way that we do as we get to high school and college.

Jo Reed: Gina is an academic and that's why they've moved to Rome, Washington, because she got a tenure track job and her husband, Mac, is a writer.

Rob Meyer: That’s right.

Jo Reed: And there's a way in which the film sort of gently pushes against academia and mocks it, though mock is a harsh word. It sort of tease—

Rob Meyer: I think it does. <laughs>

Jo Reed: It teases it.

Rob Meyer: I mean it -- the film does a lot of teasing in all sorts of directions. And I certainly thing Annie, who wrote the film, who is in academia—you sort of feel comfortable teasing the thing you're a part of. And so, I think because she's from that world; she can kind of embrace the occasional ridiculousness of it with the assumption that people don't take it at face value. But I think it's also a narrative device to isolate her. She's moved her whole family out here. She hoped to join this community of academics. She'd been a struggling artist on her own, working as a photographer in Brooklyn and not finding her place necessarily. So, I think she's looking to find her place and to discover that this may not be your crew, this may not be your group. Just ups the stakes for her and increases the dreading sense that she's made a huge mistake in kind of dragging her whole family and life out there. Obviously, Mack and Clark are also feeling extremely isolated in different ways. So, yeah, it was partly to have some fun poking fun of academia, which I think, hopefully, academia can take a joke. They're smart people, who hopefully know that we're not malicious.

Jo Reed: Yeah, well frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath about academia taking a joke. And I speak as someone who worked in the academy for years. But anyway—

Rob Meyer: Oh, that's true. <laughs>

Jo Reed: But Mac, as we said, is a writer. He has written one novel and now he's writing sort of food critiques.

Rob Meyer: Yes, he's—it's one of the more bizarre choices we made. He's currently working on an article for an obscure foodie magazine about people, about YouTube personality like food bloggers from all over the world, who specialize in French food specifically. So, it, again, it's sort of meant to poke fun at how specific and obscure and weird the world is getting and how connected and yet disconnected we are. Sort of the world of--what you have to do to make a living as a freelance writer or blogger. But it also is meant to talk about how difficult it is as a writer to earn a living as a novelist. I think almost no one really does. You have to have a kind of a side job as well.

Jo Reed: And that's where I was going, because he was going—he's in the process of writing a second novel. But he has a marvelous line in the film, talking to somebody in this small town, who he's become friendly with, which was, "I thought I made it until I found out I didn't," it's an artist's dilemma. You have that show and you have that movie. You have that painting. You have that book and you think, "Aha. I have arrived." But—

Rob Meyer: Yes. As a film maker, that line definitely speaks to me and most film makers that I know. You're kind of waiting to be made, like you'll never have to hunt for work again, projects will just come your way and you can -- you finally can just say with a straight face, "I'm a film maker. I'm an in demand feature film director." And that does happen for some people for a period of time. But if someone in film school put it to me, "Basically, everyone's just trying to get their next gig." And if you kind of keep it in that scope, it's a little less depressing. So, certainly, that was something—I'm not a writer, but as a film maker, I keep waiting for that moment to arrive. But here I am on a podcast, so this is it. I've made it.

Jo Reed: So, there you go. You made it. Talking to the National Endowment for the Arts.

Rob Meyer: Exactly. <laughs>

Jo Reed: You have arrived! <laughs>

Rob Meyer: Yes.

Jo Reed: Now, the relationship of the family is really vital to this film. Can you tell me how you worked with the three actors?

Rob Meyer: Yeah, I mean I'll start by saying it is, again, based on Annie's family and she has this really wonderful and specific dynamic, where they're, very open about everything. All discussions are on the table. Super loving, argumentative, opinionated, complicated, but you just love this family and you want them to succeed and you wouldn't want anything to happen to them or you wouldn't want them to fall apart in any way. That desire of the audience to want to see this family stick through this difficult situation had to be there for the movie to work. And I have to give credit to—all the credit to the actors. Melanie Lynskey, Nelsan Ellis are amazing. They're the best actors I've gotten to work with—I got to work with Ben Kingsley one time, so I don't want to sleight Sir Ben, but he had a small role in my first film. And this, to work with both of them for the whole film was a real honor and I learned so much from watching them work. And, you know, it’s about the little gestures, the little additional touches and looks and smiles and being physical in just small ways, body language. There's kind of intimate talks with Clark in the bedroom. I really was hoping to give the audiences the feeling that they were kind of a fly on the wall of real difficult family conversations that deal with issues of budding sexuality and race and confusion and anger. You know, we filmed it also in a way that hopefully felt uncomfortably intimate in a way might have been hard at times, but hopefully put you in the room with this family.

Jo Reed: You mentioned you liked working with kids—why?

Rob Meyer: I mean from a selfish point of view, I find it a lot of fun. And I’m talking about kids who are like 11, 12, and older. I haven't started working with five-year-olds. That would probably a nightmare. But kids who are talented and charismatic and comfortable with themselves and, basically, you try to cast kids who are right for the part. You're not looking for a Daniel Day-Lewis who can do everything. Once you cast the right kids and you give them the confidence that they're the right people for the part and that they have a lot to offer and they can just be honest, they tend to deliver in ways that kind of exceed expectations. And they also just make sets a lot of fun. No one gets that grumpy when there's a kid around. It's sort of creates a kind of joyousness on set and a sense of play that people get into film to do, but it's quickly to lose sight of that, when you have been doing it for a long time.

Jo Reed: I'm curious. From the time that script arrived on your desk until you could say, "Okay, it's printed. We're showing it now." How long did it take to make [Little Boxes]?

Rob Meyer: From my desk to where we screened it at Tribeca, I think it was about three years. But it had been around in script form for four to five years prior to that, believe it or not. It started out, Obama had just been elected President, the story of a biracial kid felt very relevant. And the time I screened it most recently, Trump had just been elected. It has been around for a long time as most indie films are--the reason being the typical indie film reason, to get the financing and the actors and the director and everything aligned. It's a small miracle every time it happens. And Jared Ian Goldman was the champion of this film. He also produced Loving and The Skeleton Twins, he would not let this film go away. And I think it was a testament to him and Annie's script that it finally did get made.

Jo Reed: Now, were you involved in raising money too?

Rob Meyer: Thank God, no. I was a little more on my first film, which I wrote and had to basically pitch to investors and—

Jo Reed: And that was A Birders Guide to Everything.

Rob Meyer: Yes. That was based on my graduate thesis film. And that one, yeah, blood, sweat, and tears to get every dollar of that film. And luckily, it came together and it came together nicely and it had just come out and gotten a bunch of good reviews, when they were looking for a director of this film and I—somehow I ended up with this script. I really connected with it. It's a humanistic film and I love films that deal with real families and real issues and are heartbreaking and funny and moving and hard to define. I'd say I love the films of Alexander Payne and I love the films of Tom McCarthy and, you know, those types of films really speak to me and are what I think are really worthwhile. The amount of effort. The amount of effort that goes into making a film, I feel like those are worth the effort. They'll start conversations and connect with people. So, this was that kind of script and I couldn't believe I had the good luck of getting a script that had some financing already attached to it. It didn't have the actors attached to it, but that was part of my job to hopefully come on and convince actors to come on, which I did my best at. I also attracted my friend Cary Fukunaga, whose executive producer on the film in hopes that he could help bring more attention to the film—

Jo Reed: And he was involved with True Detective and he directed Beasts of No Nation, correct?

Rob Meyer: Yup. He directed the whole first season of True Detective and Beasts of No Nation and Sin Nombre was his first feature. So, he came on and was helpful, but things shifted and back and forth and took a couple years to finally get the pieces in place. And then we did and we shot the whole film in New York. We shot a lot up in Newburgh, New York, which has a whole budding new film industry and some new sound stages. And so, we were lucky to kind of find that and bring some work up there. I think they're looking to become a new film destination and I can see why. And, yeah, and made the film here and premiered it at Tribeca last spring.

Jo Reed: How did you cast the film? You worked with a casting director, how involved are you in the casting?

Rob Meyer: Avy Kaufman cast this film and my first film and she's a legendary casting director. She does all of Ang Lee's films and probably ten other films that are your favorite films. So, she really led the charge, but, ultimately, I make the choices with her on the final cast. Now, it's a little different when you bring on your leads, Melanie Lynskey, Nelsan Ellis. Those are people you make offers to for the film like this where they're such amazing actors and they're the reason that the financiers feel comfortable sort of green lighting the project. We just offered them the roles based on their work and their experience. Same actually, with Christine Taylor and Janeane Garofalo. We were lucky to have them. They're pretty big names and no one's getting paid much on an indie film. But then, we also got great actors, who came to audition, because of the strength of the script and because of Melanie Linski and Nelsan Ellis and Avy and me are Cary. So, we had a real embarrassment of riches. The hardest thing, obviously, was finding an 11 to 12-year-old biracial boy, who had all the right qualities of Clark. It's a pretty narrow target, but Avy called me late one night or texted. He said, "I found him. I found him. Check your email." And she found Armani Jackson, who is brilliant and brought a lot of pathos and innocence. And I love kids whose face you can really read into without them doing a whole lot of kind of "kid acting" and he had that kind of interesting charismatic face and thoughtfulness that that character needed. And a few of the actors were finds. But most of them were pretty seasoned New York actors, who Avy in short time pulled together for me and I could basically look at the best of the best and make my selection and work with them in the auditions.

Jo Reed: Were you able to rehearse with the cast?

Rob Meyer: Honestly, not really. I mean again, we were still casting almost at parts when we were shooting. I mean it was that fast once we got the green light. So, the actors came from different places, so they were only in New York for a day. So, we had a day before we started shooting that I could work on some scenes with Melanie and Nelsan and Armani. And we did a read through of the script, which was really helpful. And then, you have time on set when they're lighting and you're setting up. So, you have some freedom on set, but I'm hoping someday I get a chance to actually rehearse for like a week or two. That would be really cool.

Jo Reed: Do you do multiple takes? Do you do many takes? How do you typically proceed?

Rob Meyer: I never really know how many takes other directors do. I do probably three to five on average. I guess four would be my average, then. So, I don't think that's very much. You know, we're shooting 21 days and they're not long days, because the kids can't work long hours. And you do want to do a number of set ups. I do like working with two cameras so that conversations can flow and you can have some overlapping dialogue and you can get through more coverage more quickly and not have to have the actors repeat themselves. But, you know, every time you do a new setup, you basically have another chance to have a new take, if you're not quite feeling like you're there yet. But no, I mean there's definitely some directors out there, I think like Clint Eastwood does one to two takes or Woody Allen. And they just kind of like, "Good. All right. Let's go on." I'm not quite that confident yet, but I've seen directors, but, you know, Kubrick—who is a genius—I think did like 50 to 100. I think it was slightly a way to kind of torture and get under the skin and brains of his cast, but—

Jo Reed: William Wyler did the same thing.

Rob Meyer: Yeah, it's definitely—I'm not into messing with my actors, but I can see how it does get results.

Jo Reed: And what about improvising? Do you encourage it? Do you discourage it?

Rob Meyer: I definitely encourage it. And I always want people to do improvising and then I tend to not like it. <laughs> I'd like, "Yeah, try something new." And I'm like, "No, stick with the script." But then, I actually a lot of improvised stuff made it in. And when you have Janeane Garofalo and some of the other actresses, especially when they're having that kind of part scene and they're just riffing.

Jo Reed: And what about the editing process?

Rob Meyer: I love editing. It's definitely the most creative part of film making in a lot of ways, because you're not dealing with external factors. And I guess writing is also a creative part of film making, but the shoot itself is—there's so many logistics and so many things going wrong and you're at times just feeling like you're trying to stop a disaster from happening.

Jo Reed: <laughs>

Rob Meyer: At least that's been my experience, where it's just like you're running out of time and you wish you had more. You're always feeling like you don't have enough of anything, whereas the edit, you kind of know what you have and now you're just trying to make the best film you can with those materials and you start to bring in music and sound effects and the pacing of the cuts. And I have a music background, so it to me it's a real pleasure. Like I could just sit in the edit room for 12, 14 hours and it's not exhausting. It gets exhausting by the end when you're banging your head against problems you've been stuck with and you can't find a solution, but the beginning when you're finding the film and the tone, it's a really pleasurable process and I used to edit my own shorts and I'm so glad I'm not anymore. Because to just have one more brilliant person in this part, Mark Davis, who's edited a lot of great films to bring his perspective and to balance and to argue and to make discoveries together, it's a really fun part of the process.

Jo Reed: Let me ask you this: you walk out on that set, it's the first day. And even on a small indie film, there are a lot of people and they're all looking to you. "Okay. What are we doing?" Do you sort of have to like, I don't know, get your nerve up like, "Okay, here we go?"

Rob Meyer: Yeah. It's interesting. I kind of wish I could watch other people direct to see how they handle that. I really love—it makes me sound egotistical. I love being in charge of a film crew. I treat it a little like being a counselor at camp. I don't like feel nervous in that situation. But I also don't -- I'm not like a shouty, bossy, throw my weight around kind of person. It's just very exhilarating to have eight to ten department heads and 20 or more people bringing their talent and skills and passion to realizing your vision, which by the time you start shooting, you have a pretty clear sense of. I mean I think if I went into a shoot not knowing what I wanted, it would be terrifying. But by the time you get to the shoot, you've worked with the DP for the cinematographer for weeks. You've made mood boards, you've story boarded it all out. You have a really great plan. And then it's starting to come to life and you're seeing it on the monitor and it's really exciting. And I said before it was like a train wreck, but it's actually a whole lot of fun. It's just by the end of the day, it's a train wreck, because you're out of time and you didn't get everything. So, it definitely is a personality type. I think I'm an extrovert, which helps. There are definitely people for whom I think it would be literally a nightmare for them. And there are probably some great directors for whom it is a nightmare and still they still do a great job. So, I think that's almost more just like a “what kind of person are you?”

Jo Reed: So you even felt that kind of confidence on your first film?

Rob Meyer: My first film in particular was definitely sort of an out of body experience when the trucks showed up and the—how much food we had and they had this lights on cranes and we had helicopter at one point. It definitely felt—you feel like a kid like you can't believe you're kind of living this fantasy. And growing up, that's what I wanted to do and I never really considered it seriously as a career until well after college, because it seemed so ridiculous. But occasionally, you get to actually live your dreams a little bit. And you try to really enjoy that, because you're probably not going to make a million movies. So, it's you better enjoy the times that you have where you have this amazing crew and cast and producers all kind of helping you with this dream. It definitely takes a certain amount of ego to think that your voice is worth hearing and worth all those people supporting you, but I think everyone's is. It's just you have to have the confidence in believing in it.

Jo Reed: So, you’ve always loved film from the time you were a kid?

Rob Meyer: Yeah, I can't say I'm a real film buff. And there are definitely many conversations where people find out I'm in film and they start referencing obscure films and I just nod, pretending I know what they are, because I don't want to seem like an idiot. But I've always loved making films. And I always used to borrow my dad's VHS camcorder to make really stupid zombie sci-fi, you know, putting gasoline on my toy cars and lighting them on fire and trying to make cool action sequences. And I made films in college. I played in the orchestra in college and I made these videos for the orchestra. Again, they were a theme of my films. They were pretty stupid. But they were really fun. And I think it was in college when I was making them that I realized that I was actually pretty good at it, not necessarily as a film maker, but as a person who can collaborate with a lot of different people. And it's a really interdisciplinary art. You have to have a good background in music, cinematography, photography, costumes, production design, working with actors, editing. It definitely is one of the things that you really can't be just good at one thing. You need a lot of skills and I'm always enjoying a lot of stuff as opposed to becoming great at one thing, so it sort of fit my personality. And just also getting the most out of people, motivating a crew to work in the example of independent film for very little money and to really put their all into it and to push what they think they're capable of. That takes a certain amount of kind of enthusiasm and appreciation and cheerleading, which I'm pretty good at. Yeah, in that sense, I've always liked that part of film making. But there are definitely people who know way more about film than me.

Jo Reed: You said that it wasn't until way after college that you thought you in fact would become a film maker. What were you going to do? What were you thinking about?

Rob Meyer: Actually, I did go into making documentaries right after college, so I did think maybe I want a career in telling stories. But I wasn't quite willing to say I want to be a feature film director. And I grew up in Boston, so I during college got an internship working for Nova at WGBH making science documentaries. And really hit the lottery. I got to travel to Antarctica twice and I went to Everest and I went to Egypt and I went to all over the place making these kind of adventure science films. Yeah, sort of a dream job, especially for a twenty-something, single person, who wanted to travel after college. And really learned a lot about storytelling and film making and working with crews, you know, on a documentary level there. But at that point we were shooting on 16 millimeter film and hiring really great cinematographers, who got to bring on lighting and grips and gaffers. You know, it was definitely a time when you could put more money into documentaries. This is '99 I started. But I still had that bug to want to tell fictional feature film stories and, you know, basically be like Steven Spielberg or one of my heroes growing up. And so, I thought I should apply to film school, so I applied to NYU thinking, "Well, if NYU grad film school thinks I'm maybe capable of being a film maker that would probably give me the confidence I need" and I miraculously got in and had an amazing class of colleagues there. I mentioned Carey Fukunaga and Craig Johnson and Mark Heyman, who wrote Black Swan. There's 30 people and I'd say 20 of them have made films that you may have heard of at this point. So, which is sort of unheard of for a class. Because usually just a few people kind of are able to get a feature film made. So, I had a really great class that were very supportive of each other and helped each other along the way. And that, yeah, that definitely gave me the confidence to think that I could maybe could do this.

Jo Reed: Now, Little Boxes opened up at the Tribeca Film Festival. Tell me what that experience was like for you.

Rob Meyer: It was amazing. My first film also was at Tribeca and its always huge opportunity for a film maker to be at that festival. New York is a great place for film. They’ll always be sold out. You'll have lines of people waiting to get in. You'll get great press. There's all these red carpets and other films with big stars coming in and doing all these interviews with "Entertainment Weekly" and, again, going back to the "I've made it” feeling. It's one of those, you know, "I’ve made it here." Also, the world cares. It's important what the world thinks. It's a well-regarded festival throughout the world and the industry, so people take note of the film. And, you know, you make these films. Films have gotten easier and easier to make, to be honest. You can make a really great film for not a lot of money. And with the new model of the digital distribution and streaming services, there's more people willing to invest in indie films. So now, the challenge is getting the film seen almost is harder than making a film in some cases. And so, having a festival like Tribeca and then having it play well there and get good reviews and get picked up. We got bought by Netflix and then we went on and did a theatrical distribution with Gunpowder & Sky. Even though we have some big starts in the films, which plenty of movies with stars in the films that no one hears about, that kind of get lost in the noise. And with a film like this or on my first film, which were both gentle stories about families and people, it's not Daniel Radcliffe as a farting corpse. It didn’t have a big hook. I'm describing Swiss Army Man in case you think I've just had a stroke. But it doesn't have a big, catchy premise. So, you need that kind of support to get the word out. And then, it's also just an ego boost as well for everyone involved. You know, I've done a lot of film festivals and I was like, "At a certain point is it just about patting your ego?" And my friend was like, "Rob, never underestimate the importance of patting your ego in this world." <laughs>

Jo Reed: What do you like about film? Why do you do this?

Rob Meyer: So many of my great experiences have been going to see movies with friends or on my own. I've just had so many moving emotional experiences watching films with people and then talking about them and thinking about them. It's just a great form of storytelling. It's democratic. It's not expensive to go see a movie. It connects countries in the world together. A lot of things have been said to me by characters in movies or scenes that have struck me as profound in movies. You know, and I think it's a way to distill kind of the important things in life, when it’s done well. Or it could just be fun entertainment. But I hope to make movies that area profound and have things and lines and moments that people think about when they're done.

Jo Reed: And what's next for you?

Rob Meyer: Right now, a friend of mine who's a successful music video director and I are going to co-write and hopefully co-direct a movie that's almost a musical. I'd say it's a musical in the way that the movie once was a musical. It’s about a young ballet dancer and an older rock and roller having an unlikely friendship. And then, I do a lot of commercial and branded content is how I sort of pay the bills. And I do a series with Anthony Bourdain called "Raw Craft", which is a web series sponsored by Balvenie Scotch, and we make short documentaries and sort of goes back to my Nova documentary days. So, we make 10-minute documentaries celebrating people who make things by hand. And we've uncovered a lot of great kind of craft people around the country and Tony goes and meets them and discovers their craft and celebrates them and, you know, is his normal charismatic, hilarious, interesting self.

Jo Reed: And what's the name of it?

Rob Meyer: It's called "Raw Craft". R-A-W C-R-A-F-T. And it's a great gig. The subject's interesting, I enjoy a good Scotch Whiskey. They send me to Scotland to go to the distillery regularly. And when you have Anthony Bourdain on set, suddenly the lunches and the craft services suddenly gets really good.

Jo Reed: <laughs> I bet.

Rob Meyer: It's like the restaurants find out somehow and suddenly you're literally getting Michelin star chefs and James Beard Award chefs catering our lunches, because they want to kind of come out and hang out with Tony. So, it's a good gig.

Jo Reed: And there we'll have to leave it, Rob Meyer, thank you so much.

Rob Meyer: Thanks for having me on.

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Jo Reed: That’s the director of Little Boxes, Rob Meyer. You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. The Art Works podcast is now available on iTunes. Please, subscribe and if you like us, leave us a rating. It does help people to find us.

For the National Endowment for the Arts, I'm Josephine Reed. Thanks for listening.