Interview with Mary Eckstein

NEA: Congratulations on your award. What was your reaction when you heard the news?

CHUM: Thank you very much. I was so excited.

NEA: Tell me about your earliest experiences learning to play musical instruments?

CHUM: I learned by ear from my grandfather. I listened to him while he was teaching his students. I was the first and only child in my family who studied music. I lived with my grandfather when I was growing up, not with my father and my mother. A lot of students came to our home to learn music from my grandfather, but he didn’t want me to learn music, he wanted me to study in school. But when I saw the other students learning, I had a strong desire to learn myself. Since my grandfather wouldn’t let me, I went outside to play, but I could still hear the music, and my ears were always listening. I don’t really know what happened to me. I think that every day, all day, I heard music. It stuck in my mind, and I wanted to learn.

The first thing I learned was keeping the beat. My grandfather agreed to teach me the songs by having me sing the melodies without words. I just sang, “nai, nai, nai, nai” before I started to play on the instruments. He had me start out humming the tunes like that. After that, he let me play the drums, the big drums, and he taught me to play easy patterns on them.

NEA: How did he learn to play?

CHUM: He learned from his older brother at first. I think my grandfather was the last one in the family - he had a lot of brothers, no sisters. There were eight of them altogether. I never met any of them except for his older brother. His brother learned music, then came home and taught it to my grandfather. Later, my grandfather found a music teacher.

NEA: How has the musical tradition of Cambodian folk and classical music changed over time? Has there been a lot of innovation? Has there been a change in the importance placed on it over time within the community?

CHUM: There has been a lot of change. First of all, we have a variety of approaches or techniques to playing the instruments. It is called “phloev,” a bit like improvisation. It is a way for a musician to show off his style. A group of musicians will be playing the same song together, but each one will perform it in a different way. There has been a big drop in the ability to do this over the years. Now people perform in a more standard way, without adding personal ornamentations or decorations.

NEA: One of the interesting things about Cambodian music in this country is that musicians from different regions of Cambodia often play together for the first time. Is that inspiring musically?

CHUM: As I mentioned, Cambodian songs are performed in different ways, with different “phloev” in different provinces. So when different musicians come together to play, it is hard for them to do so at first. We need to rehearse together for many hours to make it work. When we start off, we think that it will be impossible to play together. It’s as if we have nothing in common—no way to link up. That’s basically because our “phloev” are so different from one another.

NEA: Do you like it when the different musicians play together?

CHUM: Yes, because I get more experience. I learn more things from the other musicians. Then I have more techniques to draw upon in my own playing in the future. It also helps me to discover and create ways of advising the musicians to play in ways that will unify the group.

NEA: How do you feel when you’re playing music?

CHUM: When I play music, I feel…for example…at times I might not feel good, I might not be happy, I might be having a problem on the job…but when I play music, I feel better. I get back to normal.

NEA: And what about community reaction to the music? Has it grown in importance for the community?

CHUM: It is difficult for people here to listen to and appreciate Cambodian music because there are so many different styles of music around them. It is hard for them to understand. It is also harder for students to learn Cambodian music because of this.

NEA: How does the Cambodian community here react to your music? Are they nostalgic about it?

CHUM: When people from Cambodia hear the music, many of them feel homesick, or have memories of their lives in Cambodia. But Cambodian descendents born here usually just don’t understand. When they listen to a performance, one song after another, they think I’m playing the same music over and over again. They don’t know how to distinguish between one piece and another.

NEA: Do you have any favorite instruments or songs that you play?

CHUM: Some of my favorite songs are those taught to me by my teacher, but I rarely get to play them because other musicians don’t tend to know them. So I play them as solos. At the award ceremony, I will play my favorite song, one I learned from my teacher, Master Chou Nit. I will play a solo on the roneat aik xylophone. The song is called “Lady Walks on the Sand.”

NEA: Is it your favorite because it reminds you of your teacher? Or are there other reasons?

CHUM: I heard him play it, not in public, but by himself, in the morning. He’d wake up and play that song. I still remember those mornings. I learned the music by ear first. Later, I asked him to teach me how to play it. Before he taught it to me, I basically knew it.

NEA: I know you’re doing a lot of teaching. Are there significant challenges to carrying on the tradition?

CHUM: It is difficult teaching and carrying on my tradition here. First of all, it is hard to find good students. On top of that, there is not enough time to teach and study. I have to work nine-to-five, five days-a-week, in a fabric store. I can only teach and perform on the weekends and evenings. Students are also busy and therefore less committed. There are a lot of problems. It is very difficult.

NEA: What advice do you give your students for becoming good musicians?

CHUM: First, I teach them the basics. They need to master that first. I can tell which students can do more on top of that, like fancier variations and “phloev.” Basically, I teach each student the most difficult and beautiful version of a piece that I think he or she can handle at a given time. That way they don’t get frustrated by trying something that’s beyond their ability. But I also provide them with something stimulating and challenging, something that will make them want to continue to learn and that will also impress audiences as much as possible according to the student’s talent and skill. When a student begins, I tell him or her, first of all, to concentrate and to listen to what I’m telling them. Second, I want them to get comfortable with the beat. Some people can’t play in time. If they cannot do that, that makes it difficult to learn. Third, students need to respect the teacher. I can tell right away that if a student is respectful toward the teacher he or she will become a great student.

NEA: How many students do you have now?

CHUM: I have a lot. They come off and on, especially, my younger students. They learn for a while, then they go to high school and quit. It seems like every two or three years I get a completely new group of these younger students. And I have students in other states. So many people want me to go to their state and spend time teaching there. For example, I’ve worked with students in North Carolina, Rhode Island, and Maine. I have a few students in each of those states. Then when I go on vacation, like to California, I teach many students there. So, including everyone, young and old, and here and around the country, I’d say that I have around sixty students. They are all considered to be my students. I teach them whenever we have a chance to get together. I even teach them over the phone and send them recordings. I just don’t have time to go out of state that often to teach them as much as I would like. I can’t take more than two weeks-a-year off from work, and I like to save at least one of those to spend with my family.

NEA: To wrap up, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what your music means to you and why you have continued to play and teach throughout all of these years.

CHUM: I don’t want to lose my music. If I don’t teach, it will disappear. Actually, at first, when I realized how hard it was going to be to have a job and be a musician in the United States, I wanted to quit teaching and playing. Coming to live in the U.S. was hard. I could not speak English very well, and I could not find a good job that didn’t require tough labor. A lot of people asked me to teach them. I actually refused, explaining that I was tired and had no time. But then I thought, “I have a lot of musical knowledge. What am I doing, throwing it all away? I love my music. I don’t want to keep my music all to myself. I’m supposed to teach.” So I made time. I was very tired. I still am, but I don’t want to lose it. So I decided that I needed to dedicate Saturdays and Sundays to music. Ever since then, I’ve tried to do both, work and music.

Thanks to Joanna Pecore for her assistance with this interview.