Music Credits: “Finishing the Hat,” “Sunday,” “Color and Light,” “Children and Art,” from 2017 Broadway Cast recording of Sunday in the Park with George, words and music by Stephen Sondheim. Produced by Arts Music, Inc. Jo Reed: That’s Jake Gyllenhaal as the character George in the recent production of Sunday in the Park with George, and this is ArtWorks, the weekly podcast produced at the National Endowment for the Arts—I’m Josephine Reed. Some thirty years odd ago, the National Endowment for the Arts provided crucial support for the development and production of the musical, Sunday in the Park with George. The play was originally produced by Playwrights Horizons with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim and book by James Lapine. The play is a deeply imaginative exploration of the creation of Georges Seurat's painting A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte. Act 1 opens in 1884. The plot revolves around George, a fictionalized version of Seurat. He immerses himself in painting his masterpiece at the cost of pretty much everything including his relationship with his model and mistress Dot. Act 2 is in the present day and were introduced his great-grandson (also named George). He is a conflicted and cynical contemporary artist. While after workshops, readings and a run off-Broadway, the play opened on Broadway in 1984 and it won a raft of prizes---including the Pulitzer and NY Drama Critics Circle Award. The play has been restaged over the years, most recently at Broadway's Hudson Theatre with Jake Gyllenhaal as George and Annaleigh Ashford as Dot. In part, Because the NEA had been so instrumental in the birthing process of Sunday in the Park with George, Jake Gyllenhaal despite a very busy schedule was happy to sit down to talk with me about the play, theater, and acting. We spoke in the office of his production company in downtown NY—so be aware—there’s some street noise, despite the closed windows. First of all, thank you. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah, thank you. Jo Reed: With Sunday in the Park with George, I'm curious how you came to this role. Was it a dream role for you or did someone suggest it? Jake Gyllenhaal: You know, I only knew a few numbers from the show through my childhood. You know, I spent a lot of time in my car as a kid with my mom and dad and my sister listening to musical theater, all different kinds and at times throughout my childhood having the opportunity to go to the theater and see something on Broadway. And so, it was a very big part of my life. My dad taught me about music, and he played instruments and was very musical, and all of the members of his family all sing together, and he has six brothers and sisters-- five brothers and sisters. And then my mom really had the history of musical theater, and she's the one who kind of brought all of the shows into my life. So, Sunday in the Park with George wasn't one of the staples, I would say. You know, it's known more as an obscure musical in certain senses. Just for the mere fact that it won a Pulitzer, I think somehow sort of sets it apart in an interesting way. And I believe it was a bit ahead of its time, so I don't know if it caught my parents in the same way. And so, no, I didn't know that much about it as a kid. And then I obviously knew the story, and I knew some of the songs, some of the more well-known songs. Jeanine Tesori, who wrote Fun Home and a number of other musicals and is just a brilliant songwriter and an extraordinary person, came to me a few years ago and she had seen me do a show, a show called Constellations. And she had seen me, I guess or had heard that I could sing and she asked me if I would come to City Center where she was the artistic director there to do an encores production of Little Shop of Horrors with Ellen Greene. Ellen Greene was going to come back and reprise her role of Audrey. I don’t even know if it's-- it's just her role. I don't even know if it's repressible. And, you know, I hesitated. I was a little nervous. And she, I remember she sent me like a plant in a pot with a cut up Barbie doll with fake blood all over it and said, "Just do it." And so I thought, well, if the whole experience is going to have that kind of humor, then I'm in, and so I jumped in. And we did that, and it was a really wonderful success. And then Jeanine after that said, "What are we going to do next?" And I said, "I don't know. I just trust you." And she said, "You need to play George." So really, it really was Jeanine who brought this musical and this whole sort of what I consider a master work into my life. Jo Reed: Weren't you scared? Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. I mean… You know, I'm not that interested in most things that don't offer a sense of sort of challenge and fear. You know, I think that's one of the biggest parts of this whole experience and almost any artistic experience. I think that's a huge part of it. So there are times where I'm not nervous about what I'm doing, but most of the time I am, and most of the time I'm facing something in myself that I don't want to see or that I'm scared of and that always drives me in one way or another. Not like I'm a thrill seeker in that way, but I do believe that that's a huge part of the process. And so yeah, I was. I mean, when you hear that first piece. When you first hear "Color and Light," that song, you go, "How the hell am I going to do this?" That just like, "Red, red, red, red, red, orange," that whole part of painting. <Musical Excerpt> But you know, I consider that kind of discipline of learning material the best part of the process. You know, that's the time alone. That's the time behind the curtain that you get to play and make what you would call mistakes. So I just, I dove in, and I knew I had Jeanine and Jeanine, and I worked very, very intensely on the music. And I was making a movie in London, and Jeanine helped me find a number of accompanists who could play the piece, which is just, it's just a doozy for your hands as a pianist, you know. I mean, it's just like, I've seen many, many pianists, incredible ones fall, you know, in the face of this score. And I had sort of the pure accompaniment so that I could play it in the car and sing along to it. And I would work on it, you know? And I’d work on it in the car and on the way to work and on the way back and I just slowly, slowly chipped away at it and so when you have that time, and you have that focus it’s not as scary and something about music, something about playing with an orchestra is so different obviously from being on a stage in a play. You’re never alone. You know, I think that's part of what I realized through this whole process. Even when you're alone on stage, even when I am, even now, there are 16 people with me right behind me. Along with our ultimate leader there who is Chris Fenwick who is our conductor, who's incredible, and I consider him the second half of George. He's painting with the music, and all the musicians and all those instruments are the paint, which is why we have them up on the stage, which is why it was for all of us so important that the musicians stay on the stage with us in this production, because essentially they are the painting. Jo Reed: It's very interesting because there is that interiority that happens as an actor as you prepare. But theater, and most particularly musical theater, I think, is so collaborative at the same time. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. Jo Reed: And then there's that movement into, "Okay, I'm alone in the car." Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. Jo Reed: "And now I'm on the stage with, what, 40 other people." Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. Yeah. That's the wonderful part of it. You know, I mean, you come having done your work and then, and even having done my work, you know, I had a number of people who helped me learn the score. I keep going back to Jeanine, but she showed me how Mr. Sondheim's mind worked and explained to me the history of the entire piece and obviously, how the NEA and everybody, you know, how it was created and the madness, extraordinary madness that ensued in the process of creating this piece of genius. And but then, yeah, it's interesting to see the people who come on to do it. We did a stage reading at City Center of the show and half the cast came with us to the current production that we're doing now on Broadway, and to watch the piece move and change and grow as people move together and changed. And this entire ensemble is a very, very special one. There’s a moment at the end of the show where the character of George that I play is walked around the entire cast and every single night, I'm just beyond grateful and amazed at the group of talent that we have. The way Sondheim writes that every single character and every single instrument is given their own time and given a mind and an intention. And it's been interesting when, you know, members of the orchestra sub out, because the show changes in a way that it doesn't in many other shows. You know, you sub out different players, you know, you have a couple of people and you can kind of blend in. This show no one's allowed to really blend, except at the end when in the last end of the act in both acts those numbers at the end. But you have to be an individual very specifically inside this whole. And if one piece doesn't work, the whole thing doesn't work. So this whole cast and this whole ensemble of musicians and actors and performers and singers is the reason why I think the show is so strong. Jo Reed: It's hard to think of a show that has its first and second acts end so brilliantly. Jake Gyllenhaal: Oh, I know. Jo Reed: I mean, oh, my God. Jake Gyllenhaal: <laughs> I know. Jo Reed: And in both, I'm always in tears at the end of Act I and I can't even quite figure out why, but I'm happy to be there. Act II makes more sense. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. <laughs> Jo Reed: So I'm in tears again, too. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. <laughs> Jo Reed: But I get that. <laughs> Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. I mean, Act I, I think, is really about loss and is about what we sacrifice to create. Jo Reed: And what's gained too. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the beauty that there is something gained, that there is hope even in the loss, even in that sort of challenge of misunderstanding, the things that make an artist an artist, what we can see and what we can't see. I think particularly in Seurat's case, like what he can't see, what he loses, but what his grandson, great-grandson then gains and can see. You know, sometimes I think at the end of Act II it is the children portion of, you know, the art, and I think that what I believe the George of the second act gets is a family. I think somewhere he gets a family. And, you know, his obsession with the creation of this piece, which in some ways will never really match, you know, his ancestry and Seurat. And in many ways in the show can never, you know, which is what's also brilliant about it. Jo Reed: "Children and Art," I mean. Jake Gyllenhaal: Oh, yeah. Jo Reed: I mean, it really is expressed, you know, very explicitly in that song. It's so beautiful and I think absolutely right. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. I think "Children and Art" is really the song of the show in a lot of ways. You know, what we leave behind is so much about what the show is about. <Musical Excerpt> Maybe it's also because for me now; it's the song that I listen to as a character. I sing nothing at all in that song. I just get to sit there and with her and listen to her sing it to me. You know, I could go on and on as many other people, and many other performers have about, you know, performing Mr. Sondheim's music, you know, there is no space without intention, and there's no lyric without intention, and that's not connected musically with intention and I think you feel that in that song very specifically. There's a sort of repetition of melody that could very easily with the wrong performer become extraordinarily boring, but in terms of a performer like Annaleigh Ashford who is incredible -- every night, and I can attest, it's different and the intention is different and changes and has moved and has grown as its own organism and I think she has done such a beautiful job with interpreting this show but, you know, I just love listening to her sing and I love being up there on stage with her every night. It's one of the highlights of my career so far. Jo Reed: Did you get any notes from Steven Sondheim? Jake Gyllenhaal: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jake Gyllenhaal: The thing about Steven is he'll give you very simple notes that kind of open you into; they're sort of he gives you the key, you know, you find the door. You search through, you know, eight or ten of the doors and one of them unlocks into, like, a whole other world. I mean, they're very, very, very specific notes and few. Which is really helpful as a performer. Jo Reed: The play is also so much about art and creating art. And we talked about in Act I what happens, what's sacrificed, what's gained. Jake Gyllenhaal: Mm-hmm. Jo Reed: Act II, set in a contemporary period, really looks at the holy trinity of art in the 20th, 21st century of okay, there's creating the art. There's financing the art. And then there's promoting the art. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. Jo Reed: All three being true. And I think three different skill sets. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. Jo Reed: And it's asking, I think, a lot of an artist to be adept at all three. Jake Gyllenhaal: Right. Yeah. You know, there was a time when the performers of a certain era had to dance and sing an act at the same time. That, you know, there was a-- There was a time, the time that I see and respect, where craft was part of the whole thing, you know. You needed a certain package, you know. I think we've reached a time where, you know, there's a sort of-- a sort of genetic mutant aspect to the whole process of any professional career, you know. There are-- there are certain things that you need, you know. And there are exceptions to that rule always, and I think those exceptions are really extraordinary humans in a way. But a lot of it is a roll of the dice and a real-- luck. It's luck. Jo Reed: Oh, of course. Yes. Jake Gyllenhall: I think popularity and being popular, and you know, is always there. I think there is a myth just as the myth of, like, destroying your body and doing drugs, or drinking too much or being that sort of tortured artist is really an artist, is sort of the purity of art. You know, it's very interesting to me always as extraordinary as so many of the artists that we've lost at young ages, many of them to abuse and we put them on a pedestal. And I think the people who live for a very long time and work forever don't get that same kind of appreciation in an interesting way. Jo Reed: It's less romantic. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. I mean, I speak personally that I absolutely relate to so much of the second act in that, you know, you do, you have to do your art. You do it in the confines of your privacy, like we talk about, and then even in a situation like we're talking now, you have to be able to have the wherewithal and some sort of insight to be able to do an interview and get out there and do a hundred of them and try and listen and connect, you know. And that's a very big part of it. You know, one of my favorite things every night besides the show itself is going out the stage door and with the exception of two or three very strange encounters with some people who are have been odd, thousands and thousands of people who are just so lovely to connect with at the end of the show and see how much the show means to them and take pictures with everybody and talk with them a little bit, you know, as I like sign their Playbill or whatever it might be. And that connection for all of us, you know, we all participate in it, and it's great joy for everybody, for me, and I hope for them, and so, that's one of the nicest parts of it. And I think that that's a big part of the show as well. I believe in my privacy. I try and keep it as best I can. My life is very important to me. It's not that interesting at all, and I don't, you know, my personal life. But ultimately, I think being out there with the people who see the show and talking with them for a little bit afterwards is very important, and it's a part of selling the show as well so more people can see it. You know, it's very important, all of it. Jo Reed: Well, that leads so nicely to my next question. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. Jo Reed: Which is the difference between acting in theater and acting on film. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. Jo Reed: I see the challenges of both, but also the real joy in both. Jake Gyllenhaal: Oh, I mean, both mediums are extraordinary. I have to say my preference as a performer, as an actor, is on the stage. But really, it's about the ability to help tell the story. I mean, I love making films. I love the sort of collection of ideas. Sort of you like kind of open the morning grabbing ideas and inspiration and kind of throwing them into this sort of proverbial bucket, you know. You're just like, "Ah, that." "Oh, what about that?" This thing, that thing. Not only as an actor, but also in producing movies and making movies over so many years, it's so wonderful to be like, how do we help facilitate a director, for instance, to collect all those ideas, as many as possible, before the day ends, you know. Or before the sun comes up in certain cases, you know. And I think, like, that is really wonderful about making movies. There's a sort of intimacy, a specificity, and a minutia to movies that I deeply, deeply, deeply love. And that gives me the opportunity to be on stage if I'm fully, if I'm really honest, you know. I think I got really lucky at a very young age and I've tried as best I can to transition that into work on the stage. Jo Reed: With film -- I assume as with any craft, you learn how to do it, but it would strike me as being quite challenging to shoot out of sequence Jake Gyllenhaal: I mean, yes and no. I mean, it also really applies to when you're on stage. You know, what's interesting to me about my mentality on stage which is so often, you know, there's the rigor of telling the story nightly, right. And so often what I see, anybody who spends most of their time onstage, particularly now in musical theater, what I see is this like, if something shifts on a night, it's sometimes a little scarier if the intended changes for the whole production. And the thing with movies is -- I guess what happens is is because you're shooting out of sequence a lot of the time, you're freer. You're freer to make more choices. If you have five or eight or 10 or 20 tries at something, you can change intention throughout it as long as you're clear about with who the character is. And it's not as precious. You know, it's not as precious. You need to know obviously, where the character has been and where they're going, and you keep that in your mind. It’s not so tight. I mean I remember shooting this movie we did recently, this movie called "Stronger" about this wonderful man, Jeff Bauman, who lost his legs in the Boston bombings. And we shot one of the most emotional scenes on the first night. And it was scary moving up to it, but it basically just threw us into the deep end. I had spent months and months of preparation. My company produced the movie. We’ve been in Boston for months but somehow not really knowing the character, 'cause you don't really find him until you're there. All of a sudden everything starts and oh, that's it. You have to let go of those 50-what choices and keep the six, you know? And like and that happens, and so you're just shocked into it. And I remember being like this is what the universe is delivering to us. And that happens on stage nightly. Nightly that happens moment to moment, even when my brain is messing with me, even when my heart is messing with me, even when my heart is giving to me, even when my brain is turned down, and I'm now making choices in a particular flow, like it's all happening in the same way. Oh, the universe gave me that. Oh, that sound happened. Oh, that cell phone rang. Some of the actors, you know, there's so many stories about actors getting so mad. And like there was a time where I would get mad about things like that. But ultimately now I'm like oh, that's the universe where we're all in this together. What is that? You know, that's part of this story tonight. And I think you need to move with it. And the movies definitely have given me that perspective on stage. Jo Reed: And moving into production, what was your decision to do that? Was it wanting to be just more involved in the decision or thumbprint on the whole? Jake Gyllenhaal: What I found in my career is over time there've been a number of movies I've made where I just become fascinated in the work of the actor across from me more so even than the work than I'm doing. And I am proud to say that I've been working with actors like Heath Ledger and Michael Pena and then Ruth Wilson's over in the corner over there. And I'd be safe to say that all three of them in the movies that I've been in with them have given I would say better performances than I did and extraordinary performances. So in that way, I've always found myself like fascinated with the person across from me more so than what I'm doing, I would say. And being a part of the production excites me. Being a part of helping artists communicate what they want to say sometimes excites me more than even doing it myself. And I think that's what I want to move towards. And I come from a family of artists. And because I watched my family in this business succeed, fail, struggle in many different ways and not just my parents, my aunts, and uncles, you know, they're different performers in different ways. Because of that, I think I- I know that this thing as a performer can really get into your head as, you know, you thinking you're so special, and it will last for a long time. And in- in truth, you got to get into other things. You know, and my grandfather, who died a few years ago. My grandfather's in my mind a lot saying like, "When you going to get a real job?" And somehow I think the sort of functional, very technical structural quality of producing things, the ins and outs, the daily choices, and the exponentially more failure than success in the job is what I love. I love that. You know, there's that thing that he said, that George says. He says, "Art isn't easy. Even when you're smart, you think it's all together then something falls apart." And that is like the daily grind of producing anything. Jo Reed: How do you choose what projects to be involved with? Jake Gyllenhaal: Oh, I have no idea. <Laughter> No, no, no. Um, how do I choose? I believe that target draws forth the arrow. I really, really do. I think at a certain point things come to you. It's one of the things you realize as an actor auditioning so often. You know you go into auditions over and over and over again. And the unknown of why something doesn't happen, which is oftentimes so much more than getting anything is the thing that is like so confusing. And then it's even more confusing in a weird way when you do get cast. 'Cause you're like - why this thing, and not, for instance, the 50 other things that were almost just like it. You know, like what, I don't understand. And so I think for me it hasn't changed much. What has changed for me in the past five or six years is really moving towards people who believe in me. Earlier in my career, because I was younger, I had a lot of success which is sort of inexplicable in a lot of ways. I wanted to move with the cool kids. You know, I wanted to move with the kids who were like the ones who didn't necessarily want to hang out with me. And I remember when we were in high school there was a table with all the cool kids and then there were like literally like onion peels of chairs around the outside of that table. And it was just like such a weird social Darwinism experiment. You know, it was like so dark. And I- I think I functioned in my career like that for a long time. And then I realized, and maybe it was out of survival initially, move towards the people that believe in you. And that's sort of how I choose my projects. For instance like, Jeanine Tesori, who came to me with this. I would never have thought I would ever have met Stephen Sondheim. And if I had been like all I want to do is meet Stephen Sondheim, I don't-- I don't know if that would ever have happened. But meeting Jeanine who is like, who is a soul mate and her own genius in her own way, she's the one who believed in me. And I moved there, and now I just do whatever Jeanine tells me. <laughter> And that's just like, and because of that I met Stephen Sondheim, and I'm doing this show on Broadway, which I every night, don't get me wrong, I remind myself before I take a step on to that stage, what an honor it is. And I still can't believe it. Jo Reed: Probably the first thing anybody reads about "Sunday in the Park with George" and this production is oh my god, Jake Gyllenhaal can sing. <laughter> Jake Gyllenhaal: Thanks for everybody's faith. Yeah, no, no, no— Jo Reed: No, but— Jake Gyllenhaal: No, I know. I'm kidding. Jo Reed: No, it's-- one feels like you were hiding this light under a bushel or you never really did it- Jake Gyllenhaal: Now everybody feels the way my mom has for so many years. <laughter> Jake Gyllenhaal: Well, I've sung my whole life. <Musical excerpt> Jake Gyllenhaal: I admire people who at younger ages are able to be who they actually are. You know, again, it goes along with that sort of like cool kid thing. You know, for a long time who-who I am, which was this like little kid who loved to sing along with Mandy Patinkin in The Secret Garden in my mom's car when were kids, you know, and like knew every song and like mimicked all the characters and so many other musicals, you know, you know, that is who I am. You know? One of the things about this company for me is about finding stories about identity and about people's struggle with identity. And I think that can define itself in so many different ways. And I reached a point, and Jeanine was like this is who you are. And I was like, you're right. And then we just did it. You know, people ask me if I'm nervous on stage when I'm doing the show. Like, you asked me are you nervous, you know, were you scared? The weird part about it when you're in the right place, I don't feel, I don't feel nervous. When we did that first show at City Center, it tripped me out how not nervous I was. Jo Reed: Wow. Jake Gyllenhaal: I was like, why does this feel so right? And then I stopped questioning throughout the performance, and then I like 'cause I think you're just trying to survive. You're trying to make enough money. You're trying to live a life being a performer that I think so many things are against the grain. You know, there's so much stuff that is against the grain that you-you do. We all do it. Work is that. Work is like the sort of just against the grain, and occasionally you move to a place, which is why this experience is such a-- I'm so grateful for it, 'cause it feels like I'm sort of riding this wave that just feels right. Jo Reed: Do you carry roles with you? Jake Gyllenhaal: Yeah. Even like literally and specifically, I carry like the look of a character with me wherever I go because I don't really like to like spend a lot of time in the makeup chair. <laughter> Jake Gyllenhaal: People say to me like, "Oh, are you like a method actor?" And I'm like, "No, I just don't like sitting in the makeup chair that much, so I'll just live it for the time I'm doing it." Jake Gyllenhaal: Trying to find the darkest, deepest recesses of my perverse soul. And I'm like, yeah, I have those. But, you know, but I think-- I think that it's just inevitable. Jo Reed: as an audience person, somebody who reads— Jake Gyllenhaal: I like audience person. I like that. <laughter> Jo Reed: It does stay with you. Jo Reed: Sunday in the Park with George literally changed my life, so I hold it very close. Jake Gyllenhaal: I can say the same now as well. Jo Reed: There are books that will never leave the core of my being. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. Jo Reed: And I didn't write them. I read them. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. Jo Reed: So I can imagine how much more profound that would be for somebody who literally embodies it. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes. Yes. There’s so many strange things, for instance, with Sunday in the Park. I mean, it's why it is essential, the NEAs is an essential piece of American culture. There is no more important time for the NEA to be around. Look at what it created. And without, you know, the National Endowment for the Arts, I feel like Sunday in the Park would not exist. And all of us who have been a part of this through the many generations that it has been here and hopefully, in future generations, and the lives that it's changed, and I only speak for myself. And I-- sounds like you too, like we wouldn't have it. I think it made me realize who I actually am and give to the world in the way that I should. The irony is that this is the one I've heard, this is one of the first Sondheim shows to recoup. We've done it in 10 weeks. In 10 weeks of a performance of this show we have, we are in profits. Now I know how much was invested in the early stages of this. And 30 years later now and then some, from the initial investment, it is finding itself. The long game is what it's all about. And I think that's really like where I see organizations like the National Endowment for the Arts as the- the cornerstones of America. And really around the world in different ways, you know? So yes, they stay with us. They shape us. I think about my 10-year-old niece, who came the other day to see the show with my sister and thinking about being a kid watching a show, watching many shows when I was a kid and musical theater and theater giving me all the things that it has given me. An island in times in my life that have been so difficult and a means to express myself, and something bigger than movies gave or can communicate in a way, that connection. And all of those things stay with me. They shape who I am. Being a little boy in a car listening to Mandy Patinkin on a CD, you know, first on tape on CD. <laughs> And then having him come back stage, us holding each other, me reprising the role that he created and originated is like at this point the most special moment of my career and better than any moment thus far. That and when my niece saw the show are the two moments of most-- I was most grateful. Jo Reed: Well, with your niece it's blood. But with Many Patinkin, it's an artistic inheritance. It's another; it's passing along another kind of family. Jake Gyllenhaal: Yes it is. And to ever have thought I would be in that family with him or with Stephen Sondheim or just doing this show, it doesn't really compute. It really does not compute. Admittedly, I'm not a very like effusive like <gasps> like, but I am in awe. Who knew? <Musical excerpt> Jo Reed: And I think that's a good place to leave it. So thank you. I appreciate it. Jake Gyllenhaal: Thank you. Jo Reed: That’s actor Jake Gyllenhaal. The CD’s of the 2017 Cast Recording of Sunday in the Park with George with Jake Gyllenhaal and Annaleigh Ashford will be released on December 8th. You’ve been listening to ArtWorks produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. And the ArtWorks podcast is now available on iTunes. So, please subscribe and if you like us—leave us a rating—it really does help people to find us. For the National Endowment for the Arts, I'm Josephine Reed. Thanks for listening.