Jo Reed: You once said that basket making isn’t just what you do but it’s who the Northeast people are. I’d like you to say more about that.

Kelly Church: Yeah. The native nations of the Northeast. So it would be the Nishnaabe. That’s all of us in the Great Lakes area. The Iroquois and the Haudenosaunee, which is the New York areas, and the Wabanaki, up in the Maine area, and it is something that’s just integral to our people, but I do believe it’s that blood memory that makes it so precious to us. You know, why do we love this tree so much? It’s the stories that we hear from our ancestors, it’s the stories we hear from our families. I fell in love with basket weaving from hearing the stories that my grandfather told about him and his mother harvesting trees, weaving baskets… I come from an unbroken line of weavers, so we’re not really sure where they started, but we do have a picture from 1919 of our family weaving. So with that picture I’m fifth generation. My daughter’s sixth generation. So it’s just something that has been sustained in our family.

Music Credit: “NY” composed and performed by Kosta T, from the CD Soul Sand. Used courtesy of the Free Music Archive.

Jo Reed:  Welcome to Art Works, the weekly podcast from the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed.  This week, we go across the country to the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota for a conversation with multi-media artist Arlo Iron Cloud.  Arlo is a photographer, filmmaker, radio producer, station manager of Pine Ridge’s KILI Radio and, with his wife, Lisa an activist in the sovereign food movement.  Because of his long experience in radio broadcasting, it made sense to me have him to tell you the rest.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  I'm Oglala Lakota, I'm also half Dine, my father is Oglala, and my mother is Dine, and I grew up till 12 years old on the Navajo reservation, and then at about 12 or 13 we moved up here to Pine Ridge, the Pine Ridge Reservation, and that's where I've been ever since.  I'm a father, I have four beautiful children, and I am married to a beautiful woman, Lakota woman, that is from the Pine Ridge Reservation, her name is Lisa, and I currently live in Rapid City, South Dakota, and we're currently moving down to the reservation again, and I've been commuting every day back and forth from the reservation so it's like a 90 mile commute one way, so a total of like 180 miles every day.  I work for KILI Radio, I'm the station manager, I'm producing a documentary right now, and then I'm also doing a lot of side work with my wife, and she's helping in leading the food sovereignty movement with her work with the Tatanka bison.   

Jo Reed:  The name Iron Cloud has such a long history, do you mind sharing that with us?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  The name Iron Cloud goes way back,  we can identify our lineage to even past the Battle of Greasy Grass, and it's a really beautiful story, and it starts with a man who basically took on two wives, and I think what a lot of people misinterpret these days is that when a man in that time took on two wives it had nothing to do with sexuality, and I know that whenever people hear that he had two wives they're always like, "Yeah, all right!"  And it's not even that at all, and I always like to educate people on this part that it was about responsibility that whenever our people needed help there was that one thing that we always had and that term is waunsila that we had this compassion, this love enough to take this also on in your life, and it was admirable.  So it goes back to him where a grandma named Runs for the Hill, and Red Necklace, and they called them Tall Grandma and Short Grandma, and they were sisters, and that's who they were married to, and that's where we come from.  I always like to really talk about the matriarchal part of my history because that's really the backbone of who I am today.  So there was an original Iron Cloud, and that was his life, he had two wives, and he was a great man, and I would say that's, what, eight generations back?  Yeah.  Crazy, huh?

Jo Reed:  Your radio station, KILI, I want to know all about it, when did it begin, how did it begin?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Oh gosh.  Okay.  This is my favorite subject.

Jo Reed:  Oh good.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  KILI Radio is the beacon for communications on the Pine Ridge Reservation, social media has not kept up.  Like everywhere in the world communications is super important in everybody's livelihood, and it's so taken for granted, and for us we haven't climbed down to that Iktomi's web, that worldwide web of information, we haven't climbed into it yet, the most of us haven't anyway, and KILI Radio is the hub for communications on the reservation.  If you want information out you go to KILI Radio, you want to learn something you go to KILI Radio, you want to laugh, you want to enjoy yourselves, you go to KILI Radio.  We've been in operation for well over 40 years, we have a birthday coming up here on February 28th, and it's just been this wonderful place, this amazing, great place that was born because we didn't want to be forgotten, or we wanted to ensure that our way of life was continued and moving forward in this new generation, and so that's why it was born. We designed our radio station so that it's owned by the people and for the people.

Jo Reed:  And the slogan of your radio station is..

Arlo Iron Cloud:  I got to get some water in my mouth for that one.

Jo Reed:  Yeah, go ahead.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  We're the voice of the Lakota Nation.

Jo Reed:  I was so surprised to read you're a community radio station, but talk about your wattage, I mean your reach is really massive.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Right.  We are heard in three states, South Dakota, Wyoming, and Nebraska, and we kick out 100,000 watts of vicious Lakota airwaves, that's what we say from time to time, and we have two signals, one on the reservation, 90.1 FM, and then the other one is in Rapid City, South Dakota, and that is 88.7, and that one doesn't kick out as much wattage, however the community is all the same.

Jo Reed:  Tell me sort of what the programming is like that you do when you say it's by the people and for the people, what are the people programming?  What do they want to hear?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  So we have a wide variety of programming from talk shows to  federal information.  Because we're a reservation, we work with the federal government, it's supposed to be one on one but the kinks of that are still getting worked out, but we do work with the federal government and so there are federal government messages that get out, and then we have-- like a show I have is called the Wakalapi Chit Chat Show, and they're just talk shows.  So in between all that there's a variety of things going on, and it's just like the music, we go from traditional Lakota song all the way to techno, what's happening on with the most recent hip hop right now, that's how wide we are, I mean we go from reggae to rock, and then we'll go from country to heavy metal, we cover all these things because the people that run the radio station develop sort of like a following, and we have that consistency well enough down that if anybody who is into classic rock, they know that they need to listen to the radio station from 2:00 to 6:00 p.m.  You know what I mean?

Jo Reed:  Yep.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  So it's one of those things that like it's really at this point and I'm so thankful for, it's a really well rounded radio station, and so I wish I could explain it a little bit more, but the thing is that you have to listen to KILI and then learn that the complexity is reflecting the people.

Jo Reed:  I have to say, I listened to your show, the Chit Chat Show, to get ready for this interview.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Oh, I-- okay, all right.  Thank you.

Jo Reed:  No, you're welcome, which was fun, I mean I love radio, I really do, and it's so nice when there's a combination of talk and music because now everything is so much in its little slot, and even with your show, and really that was the show I listened to, there was such a diversity of talk as well as music.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Totally. The Chit Chat Show began because a cousin of mine, we got together one morning, we were sharing information about the casino, and we started talking, and we were just tossing back our own ideas like how could we improve the casino?  And we just threw out some outrageous ideas, and then the casino started getting a buzz just from us talking.  So we were really, you know, it became other things, it just grew from there.

Jo Reed:  So you and your cousins were disc jockeys and started talking about this between songs…and a show was born.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Right.  and I don't think there was ever a talk show on the radio show before that, and that was over 10 years ago, too.

Jo Reed:  Wow.  I wonder, did programming change during the pandemic, Arlo?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  The programming changed enormously at the station.  One of the things that our programmers and radio hosts loved doing was sitting down in a room and communicating with somebody at the station, and it was like I said a place for communication, if anybody needed information that's where they went, that's who they called.  So when the pandemic hit the first thing that we did was do our best to inform the people, and I got to tell you that's one of the hardest things I've learned in my history of working, communicating with everybody to ensure them that we are providing accurate information about pandemic issues, and so our work in this area was totally dependent upon national information, and the trouble with that is the information was so mixed up that we had such a hard time communicating with the people about what was truth. So nobody's right now still currently allowed at the radio station, only the deejays are, but yeah, before people used to love to come in, get on the mic, and we used to have live performances too, those are all gone as well.

Jo Reed:  But I'm sure will return at some point, and you’re the station manager. Tell me a bit about what that job entails.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Yes, my job is to help coordinate the schedule, write for things, keep up on reports, do some programming, look for underwriting, a little grant writing.  I mean I have a pretty healthy responsibility at the radio station, I'm also a deejay too so it's one of those things, you know?

Jo Reed:  It is, yeah, and I'm sure you're deejay if somebody is sick and can't make it, because we all know the one thing you can't have is dead air.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Right.  Absolutely.

Jo Reed:  I'm curious, is some of the programming in Lakota and some in English?  Do you go back and forth?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Back and forth.  We are in a process of reviving the language in our communities and so looking for Lakota programming is always a search for me, and to improve it.  I ask my deejays and myself, we're in the process of revitalizing the language within our own selves and so that's what we do, we just incorporate as much as we can, here and there, and we also make sure that English is also there as well.

Jo Reed:  Was Lakota spoken at all in your home when you were growing up?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  So my mother is Dine, it's also known as Navajo, and that's where I grew up on the Navajo Reservation, and because my father's the wonderful man that he is he supported the language, and he also spoke Lakota to us, it's just that I've learned more Dine than I have Lakota at this point still, but I am in the massive, massive-- I mean it's like one of the things I think every true blue Lakota man wakes up with is that they want to revitalize language, it's always on their mind, it's like take care of your children, language, you know, I don't know how else to explain it, it's really one of those big things that just kind of sits on our shoulders.  I only speak that because I only know a perspective of a man, and so I'm not talking about women or children or anybody in between them, I'm just saying that as a man it's a heavy thing that we think about.

Jo Reed:  Well you actually did some work on an app, didn't you, that would help teach Lakota?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Yeah, oh my gosh, I forgot about that.  Yeah, I did.  It was years ago, this was way before any language app came out, and I can probably say that we were the first.  The thing was is that we did not know the trials and tribulations of what was to forecast over this, and we hit a major one, we had infringed on someone's property, and it wasn't intentional, but it really put the brakes on, because it was a team effort. But we actually did launch the app for a second or two, it was kind of cool.  I was so proud of it, but it never happened.

Jo Reed:  Oh, it's a good idea though.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Oh, awesome idea.

Jo Reed:  Yeah, a really good idea.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Right.  And now there are like 15, 20 other applications online that you can download and get applications pertaining to language.

Jo Reed:  Were you raised in traditional ways?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  I didn't even know that it was called traditional ways.  It's so funny, it wasn't called traditional ways, I guess I was in the position of growing up during a time that didn't even identify as traditional ways, it was just the way I guess, and so when I grew up I was totally immersed in Dine culture, and because my dad is such a great dad I was totally involved with Lakota culture as well, and it was just living, and then like one day that had to be proven for some reason, <laughs> and so I guess yeah, I'm fully immersed in my indigenous reservation ways where I'm that ahigi [Ph?] little boy, in Dine ahigi, this is like this, ooh, this one you want to ahniya in Lakota it's the same term, that ahigi, ahniya, it's like that, you know, you're just this precious little thing that you just want to squeeze.

Jo Reed:  <laughs> You actually co-produced an episode of a podcast series called Out of the Blocks, that the NEA funded and you introduced the Pine Ridge Reservation to listeners across the country.  Tell me about how you thought that through and how you chose whom to speak with and just that experience.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Oh man, first I got to say Aaron Hankin and Wendel Patrick are some of the most beautiful humans ever.

Jo Reed:  And they’re the producers and hosts of Out of the Blocks.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Right. Out of the Blocks is such a great podcast.  My process was I just want people to be included and the only way to do that is to make sure that my choice was unbiased, and I had to make sure that we're fully represented.  Like I said, I have all these issues of representation of our people, and I don't want to go at it from a perspective of where like, standing in front of the stadium getting mad at the people doing the tomahawk chop because all that's creating is anger and violence.  I like to get in front of it, like be a little bit more proactive, and I want to be that person that gives information and hopefully planting a seed, that's where I like to be, and so I guess the way I look at it is that I'm just real particular about who's who, and I just want to be fair and as common as possible, I want to be a common man about this and make sure that all my relatives especially the woman side get represented of who Oglala Lakota people are. There were so many interviews that we got, and there was just so many people that were a part of the program. it was really a good variety of people.

Jo Reed:  Yeah, it was a good mix.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Yeah, thank you.  I feel pretty confident about who I selected.

Jo Reed:  You're also a photographer, speaking of representation.  What got you interested in that, and just tell me about-- it's so different from radio where it's just the voice, but then here you have this whole visual side of you as well.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Oh, I'm a multimedia artist, definitely, for sure. I've never called myself that but, yeah, I'm also a photographer.  I got into photography by it was this image I saw, and I think I was like four, whenever Hale-Bopp, you know what I'm talking about?  That Hale-Bopp Comet?

Jo Reed:  Yeah. That was 1997, I think.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Right! So I was living in New Mexico at the time, and that was cruising by our Earth at that time, and there was this friend of the family came to our table, and it was early morning, they were drinking coffee, and he brought some photographs for my mom and dad to see, and it was a picture of Hale-Bopp over one of our monuments, Shiprock, and I looked at that image with amazement because I could not figure out that photograph.  I knew what it was, I knew that it was the Hale-Bopp, and then I knew it was the Shiprock, but I couldn't figure out like because at nighttime you couldn't even see the rock.  So come to find out it was an astral photograph, a night photograph, and holy smokes, I got into astrology, I got into star knowledge, and I just learned as much as I could about that, and I started doing night photography initially, and after I found out how difficult night photography is, everything else came as a breeze, and then I've always had an eye, and so I like finding those intimate moments, I just love candid photography, and I have a lot of shots that I've never shown anybody, and my children are my biggest inspiration, they're just doing wonderful, beautiful things, and if I have the opportunity to capture it I'm all over it, including my wife who is just amazing herself.

Jo Reed:  What I like about your pictures is that they really kind of range from the timeless, you have this gorgeous photo of a buffalo on a hill at sunrise, that is simply a timeless picture, but then you have pictures of everyday life, you know, the way we live our lives, and I just love that juxtaposition.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  I really like intimacy, and nobody cares about that these days, and I feel like that's one of the things that is really hindering us as a people, not just Lakota people, but the population in general, we've lost that ability to be intimate with one another, and that's what I cherish the most.  If you ever hear conversations with my wife, my sons, my daughter, it's very, very intimate.  I like to talk about very personal matters, not because I'm trying to expose them or break them out, it's because I just want to make them so common they're not an issue anymore.  I want people to see how beneficial intimacy can be, and so that's why I like to do that, I want to bring the one on one, and I know that I'm capable of doing that, my ancestors did it, and I want to make sure people know that Lakota people are straight up, down to earth, salt of the earth people, and I don't think that's portrayed in media, and so my job is to, like I said, I want to be proactive, I want to plant the seed, and that's who I am.

Jo Reed:  Another seed you're planning with your wife Lisa is food sovereignty.  You both do a lot of work with food sovereignty, and a lot of work about reintroducing the buffalo and bringing it back to Lakota tables, and I know of course the Lakota have a long history with the buffalo, and can you just tell us a little bit about that relationship between the Lakota and the buffalo nation.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Absolutely.  The bison, the Tatanka, pte oyate, there's so many names for this because in Lakota thought we're a part of that, we're a part of them, and you go to our creation stories, you find out that our people have been associating themselves with the pte oyate for all these generations because it's how we identify how to be as humans, how to be as human beings and good relatives because our reflection of the pte oyate, there's never been like a more emotionally supportive groups if you just pay the way they act, it's so hard, and so that's why I think that's what makes us very strong people. There’s nothing romantic about being a buffalo or a bison, it's a hard way, and we've reflected upon that, and because of that, that's where we get our sense of family, our support of each other, belonging, influence, all that stuff is so incorporated within a pack of bison that we don't even as people realize that's how we did it, that's how we did it, we were like okay, let's-- our peoples use nature as the guide of how to be a good person on this planet, and it was very, extremely successful.

Jo Reed:  And the reintroducing, that process, tell me how you're going about it, and the ways you're working with people to implement that.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Holy smokes.  This is a worldwide thing, man.  We have lost connection with our food.

Jo Reed:  Yes, we have.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Whenever I was a ahigi, Navajo boy on the hill, I remember butchering, smelling so sweet, so like mmm, I know what I'm going to eat.  That's butchering to me, that's how it is, and today I can take a chunk of meat in front of some kids and they're not going to think the same thing, Indian people included, they're so disconnected. I've gotten so keen on how our food looks and tastes that I'm starting to rediscover what a palate of our ancestor's looked like, and I still go to McDonald's, I still go to those places, I'm not trying to say I'm better than anybody, I mean it's hard to ignore that stuff in this day and age, it's just that in my work I make discoveries because I care about it, I'm compassionate enough, and I have a partner that friggin' dominates in her passion for the pte oyate, she has so many thoughts and ideas whenever we talk about this, it's like it's enormous, it's a sad thing that we've lost, this connection, and a part of our drive is to revive culture through practicing where our food came from because it reflected us as a people enormously.

Jo Reed:  And when you’re talking about food sovereignty, you’re not just talking about reintroducing buffalo to the table but also traditional plants and fruits.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Oh, right!   So what we're learning is that I know when you think about what an Indian is on the plains, that Indian is mauling a piece of bison.  The thing is that we're discovering now, like 70 to even like 80 percent of our diet was on the ground or up in a tree, I mean there's so many things that exist on the ground, in a tree, in a bush, that was part of our diet that a lot of people don't even, because of America's fascination with the Plains Indian shooting an arrow through a bison, that we forgot that we were actually people of the land, that we actually ate the majority of the food on the ground, in the bushes, in the trees, and this is part of the discovery of who we are is that like we're not this person that people think, we're actually more complicated because we're ignoring the fact that we would walk along and eat a mushroom, or pick a berry in a tree. There are plants out there that got lost, it really got lost, the information about it got lost, or it wasn't just spread around a bit because there's lots of people out there that would love to know this information, and we're sharing it as fast as possible because it's one of those things that needs to be brought up, it's like we're fighting this idealism of us that we didn't even know existed, and so we're really pushing forward. There's just so many things that we ate and then, of that 20 percent that is meat, I bet you only 5 of that was buffalo or bison. But the thing about it is that one of those suckers was like the-- it was enormous right?  So that's why we probably paid attention to it more, I mean as far as quantity it was a filler. <laughs>

Jo Reed:  Yes, indeed it was, but I also understand what you're saying about how that then became romanticized, and there’s gathering as well as hunting and the gathering can get lost. How long have you been involved in food sovereignty?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  So yes, yeah, we've been working this way for about six years now, and it was solely about discovery and my wife helping me heal herself, and all of sudden there became this movement, and we just kind of were in the right place at the right time with that, and people picked up on it and they really wanted to know what she was doing, what I was doing, and I'm already a photographer and media person so I'm always promoting it by sharing stuff, and we have no intent of making this our livelihood, this is just what we're doing and we're showing people, but in that process we've developed quite a bit of relationships and people that we're working with and also learning about reviving food in our communities, and reviving what foods are understood as and our way of life, and that includes the return of the buffalo.

Jo Reed:  I'm curious, Arlo, when you think about food sovereignty for example, and the continuing work about renewing the Lakota language, and yet at the same time it's about embracing and honoring the culture but understanding but it's not like it's going back to the past, it's being in the future, and I'm curious kind of what you would like to see say 10 or 20 years from now.

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Okay.  I would like to see people more in control of what they eat, that's what I want to see.  I want to see more things eaten not just meat and potatoes. I want to see more justice for our food in the future, I want my children to have access to the lands and areas where food grows, that's what I want to see in 10 years.

Jo Reed:  And what about the Lakota language?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  I want to see the language spoken-- I want the language to be their primary language, I want English to be secondary again because right now there's probably very little English second language learners today meaning that their first language is Lakota and then English was theit second because today there's very little of that, and that's really our understanding of culture resides in the language, and so in order for us to bring that back or move forward I should say, we're not trying to go back in time, we understand that, we're not trying to go back in time, we're trying to move forward with the same understanding of our ancestors had that the land comes first.

Jo Reed:  And what part do you see KILI Radio playing in this?

Arlo Iron Cloud:  I want KILI Radio to go into the future. I want KILI Radio to be on an application through your phone, I want KILI Radio to be in the ears of everybody that has an opportunity to listen to anything, that's what I want, I want KILI Radio to be on the digital forefront of information constantly while still being there at that level of information for the people.  It's going to be a reflection of them, that's all this radio station is, eyapaha in Lakota culture there is a role called eyapaha, and this person is to share information and make sure everybody gets it so that we move as a people.  I've always loved this quote, and it's by an African tribe, and it goes “if you want to travel fast go alone, if you want to go far go together,” and that's how I see KILI Radio, it needs to include everybody before we can go in the forward direction.

Jo Reed:  And I think that's a good place to leave it.  Arlo, thank you so much, thank you for giving me your time, I really appreciate it,

Arlo Iron Cloud:  Absolutely. Thank you.

Jo Reed:  That is multi-media artist and radio broadcaster Arlo Iron Cloud. I’ll have links to Kili Radio, the sovereign food movement, and the episode of Out of the Blocks from Pine Ridge co-produced by Arlo in the show notes. You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed. Stay Safe and thanks for listening.

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Arlo Iron Cloud: KILI Radio is the beacon for communications on the Pine Ridge Reservation, social media has not kept up. Like everywhere in the world communications is super important in everybody's livelihood, and it's so taken for granted, and for us we haven't climbed down to that Iktomi's web, that worldwide web of information, we haven't climbed into it yet, the most of us haven't anyway, and KILI Radio is the hub for communications on the reservation. If you want information out you go to KILI Radio, you want to learn something you go to KILI Radio, you want to laugh, you want to enjoy yourselves, you go to KILI Radio. We've been in operation for well over 40 years, we have a birthday coming up here on February 28th, and it's just been this wonderful place, this amazing, great place that was born because we didn't want to be forgotten, or we wanted to ensure that our way of life was continued and moving forward in this new generation, and so that's why it was born. We designed our radio station so that it's owned by the people and for the people.

Jo Reed: Welcome to “Quick Study,” the monthly podcast from the National Endowment for the Arts.  This is where we’ll share stats and stories to help us better understand the value of art in everyday life.  I’m co-piloting “Quick Study” with Sunil Iyengar.  He’s the Director of Research & Analysis here at the Arts Endowment.  Hey, Sunil.

Sunil Iyengar: Hey, Jo.

Jo Reed: You know, when you sent me the study you wanted to discuss this month, I did a triple take, and I think it can be summed up best by a headline from The Guardian, which is, “Mathematicians discover music really can be infectious-- like a virus.”  Say what now?  What is the study?
<laughter>

Sunil Iyengar: Yeah.  It was rather surprising.  Last month in the proceedings of the Royal Society in the UK, for mathematical, physical and engineering sciences, that’s the proper title, researchers took statistical models that are used to monitor the transmission of infectious diseases and they applied those models to understand the popularity of music in many different genres.  They sought to know, in their words, quote, “Could the same social processes that facilitate spread of infectious disease in a population also drive song popularity?”  Well, we’ve all heard of earworms or, you know, songs being catchy or even going viral.  Well, this team from McMaster University in Ontario was curious to know if there’s any predictability in the patterns by which popular music is conveyed from person to person and whether those patterns are similar to those that are found epidemiologically, looking at spread of infectious diseases.

Jo Reed: Okay.  So how do they do this research?

Sunil Iyengar: Their data set came from Mix Radio, an online music streaming service, using data from downloads made through Nokia cell phones from Great Britain over a seven-year period.  We’re talking about downloads, not streaming.

Jo Reed: And when was this?

Sunil Iyengar: Twenty fourteen, actually, was the most recent year.

Jo Reed: Okay.  And what do they find?

Sunil Iyengar: Well, when they looked at the sheer amount of downloads over this period they, maybe not surprisingly, found that pop music as a genre led the pack, followed by rock, then dance music, indie or alternative music, then rap or hip-hop, with, and note this for later, electronica very far behind.

Jo Reed: Well, there’s not much of a surprise there.

Sunil Iyengar: Well, but the number of downloads wasn’t their focus.  The study goes on, asks about susceptibility.  Again, that’s a term from epidemiology.  In other words, how many people might be influenced to download a song from learning about it on social media by people talking about the song or other means? 

To answer this question, the researchers backed into a model for simulating the spread of an infection.  They found that the model fit the data surprisingly well.

Jo Reed: And was there a change in genres when they looked at susceptibility?

Sunil Iyengar: Oh, yes, a big one.  They learned that when you apply the model, electronica surges to the top, followed by rock and rap or hip-hop, well ahead of so-called pop music in terms of how rapidly a song of those genres is likely to spread.  The majority of downloads occur within a shorter time period than do pop songs.  Electronica, at least in the UK, gains in popularity faster than other genres, and as the researchers put it, quote, “it burns through susceptible populations more quickly.”

Jo Reed: Okay.  So this does not necessarily mean that more electronica is being downloaded but rather it spreads quicker through the susceptibility of its fans. 

Sunil Iyengar: That’s right.

Jo Reed: Do they have a sense of what accounts for this?

Sunil Iyengar: Well, the researchers speculate that for electronica fans the social network might be tighter than for genres such as pop, as they say, quote, “Electronica fans may be more passionate about their favorite songs and bands than pop bands and therefore talk about and promote their favorite songs more.”  They also note that pop, since it’s a more mainstream genre, spread largely through passive means like radio.  Who knows?  Maybe understanding these and other factors can help us know why certain genres and songs within those genres catch on in a flash, which ones stay with us longest, and whether there just might be outright immunity to certain genres within certain populations, to use their terms.\

Jo Reed: <laughs> What on earth motivated this study?

Sunil Iyengar: <laughs> Well, setting aside the obvious fact that infectious rates and transmissibility have been on everyone’s mind during the past year and a half, the researchers claim that if such patterns were, quote, “successfully applied to song spread, these might be translated into conclusions about an epidemic of song downloads.  For instance,” they say, “it might be possible to estimate the duration of a song’s popularity, how many people in total will download it or how quickly it will become popular in a population.”

Jo Reed: Am I alone in finding that a little sad, a little chilling?

Sunil Iyengar: <laughs>

Jo Reed: I mean, I know music is a business as well as an art, but can’t you see labels looking at this study and producing music via mathematical models?

Sunil Iyengar: Yeah.  Well, as you know-- as we know, the pervasive use of algorithms to recommend customer preferences, whether it’s video streaming services or in e-commerce, and of course, increasingly using artificial intelligence, it’s still kicking up a lot of questions, some of them ethical and others reflecting on the dominance of certain cultural norms and traditions at the expense of others.  So I don’t know about chilling in this case, but definitely worth closer attention and humane understanding.  With downloads and streaming services--

Jo Reed: Oh, amen to that.

Sunil Iyengar: Yeah.  With downloads and streaming services in particular, I think one wants to make sure that artists or musicians are fully compensated and that they aren’t somehow left behind.

Jo Reed: Absolutely.  Well, Sunil, thank you so much.  This was definitely eye-opening.

Sunil Iyengar: <laughs> Hope so.  Thank you, Jo.

Jo Reed: <laughs> I’ll talk to you next month.  That was Sunil Iyengar.  He’s Director of Research & Analysis here at the National Endowment for the Arts.  You’ve been listening to “Quick Study.”  The music is “We Are One,” from Scott Holmes Music.  It’s licensed through Creative Commons.  Until next month, I’m Josephine Reed.  Thanks for listening.

Soul Sand written and performed by Kosta T. Used courtesy of Free Music Archive

“I Be Tryin’” performed live by Cedric and Portrika Burnside, written by Cedric Burnside.
“Goin’ Down South” from the album, A Bothered Mind. Composed and performed by RL Burnside,

with Cedric Burnside on drums.
“Ain’t Gonna Take No Mess,” written and performed by Cedric Burnside from the cd Benton

County Relic.

Cedric Burnside: I like to think of it as the rhythm of hill country blues and I like to think of it as it’s unorthodox. It’s not a straight one-four-five, like normal blues would be. It’s kind of got a rhythm of its own. It’s kind of hard to explain, actually, but it’s really a distinct sound and I think the unorthodox rhythm is what makes hill country blues stand out from any other blues music you hear.

That is Hill Country blues musician, songwriter and 2021 NEA National Heritage Fellow Cedric Burnside and this is Art Works, the weekly podcast from the National Endowment for the Arts, I’m Josephine Reed —

Jo Reed: Cedric Burnside is a proud inheritor of Mississippi Hill Country blues. his father was drummer Calvin Jackson, and his Grandfather—the man Cedric calls his Big Daddy-- was the great bluesman RL Burnside. Cedric essentially grew up in RL’s house, listening to the music, playing along at the regular house parties, and at the local juke joint. Cedric began as a drummer and by 13, he was backing RL and a host of blues’ legends on tours. Beginning his musical life as a drummer (and an award-winning one at that), Cedric added guitar-playing to his repertoire—partly because he found it useful for his prolific song- writing. He soon came out with a solo album Benton County Relic which nominated for Grammy and showed once again that Cedric Burnside is one of great proponents of this distinctive music. He tends to the tradition—but he also makes it his own. This isn’t music calcified in the past; it’s very much of the present—but you can hear and feel its deep roots. I was thrilled to speak with Cedric before a show in Brooklyn, NY. Since we were back stage, you’ll be able to hear a little back ground noise as well as an air conditioner that would occasionally turn on. But no matter... Cedric Burnside is a terrific story-teller. Because Hill Country is central to the music and to the man—I asked Cedric to tell me about the where he was raised.

Cedric Burnside:. I grew up in a little town called Chulahoma, Mississippi on the outskirts of a town called Holly Springs. But yeah, it’s where I come from, the environment I come from, the family I come from. They played hill country blues at house parties every other weekend. People would come from miles away just to hear it on the weekends and it was kind of a traditional thing. It’s something that just goes on in North Mississippi. People throw house parties at the juke joints or on their front porch and people just come to have fun. That’s the hill country way.

Jo Reed: Your family has deep roots in this music. Your dad was drummed Calvin Jackson. Cedric Burnside: Yes.

Jo Reed: Your grandfather, the great bluesman R.L. Burnside. Tell me a little bit about both. I know that both mentored you.

Cedric Burnside: Yeah. They did in different ways, both in different ways. I spent most of my time with my big daddy, R.L. I spent most of my time with him. I kind of spent my whole childhood with him. So, I was always around the music. It was in my blood. I feel like I was born with this music in me, but I was always around it from a little kid and I used to watch my dad, Calvin Jackson, and my uncles, Daniel Burnside and Joseph Burnside, and my big daddy, of course, R.L. I used to watch them play every other weekend and I knew it was just something that I wanted to do for the rest of my life, even at a young age, six, seven years old. I watched my dad on the drums and I just watched him in amazement. I watched my big daddy and he was singing and he was playing and his voice was like something that was out of this world and I knew it was something that I wanted to do for the rest of my life and I knew that at a young age.

Jo Reed: That’s really fortunate. Tell me about the rest of your childhood. What was it like?

Cedric Burnside: Well, a lot of people would say it was pretty rough. Just kind of the way I grew up, the environment I grew up in, we didn’t have running water when I was growing up until I was about 11, 12 years old. We hauled water just to bathe, to eat, to clean, and I would walk a mile, sometimes a mile and a half, me and other grandchildren, we would walk with a belt on our back and hauling water and jugs. So, we did that for years and to me, it was normal. It’s what I always knew. I had to haul water from three, four years old. If I was big enough to hold a jug, I would go get water. It was the way we did things and so, it was normal to me. I didn’t think any poor thoughts. I knew that sometimes we would be kind of low in food, mainly meat. My big daddy was a sharecropper. So, he would get up real early in the morning, five, six o’clock in the morning to go get on the tractor to plow the fields and so, he would get out there and really just work for food and shelter and in return, the landlord let us say in this little shack house, about a four-room house and I mean just four rooms and we stayed in that house in return for my big daddy working for the landlord and when it come time to harvest the crops, they would go to the market and sell what they can and then they would split what they have left between my big daddy and the landlord. That’s really how he did things for a while, food and shelter. He worked and in return, food and shelter was his pay for all of us and that’s where I come from. I’m not ashamed of where I come from. I’m not ashamed of what I went through to get where I’m at right now. It made me stronger, definitely made me not take anything for granted. So, I come from that world and I’m here right now because of my big daddy, R.L. Burnside.

Jo Reed: So, he’s sharecropping and also, creating all this extraordinary music.

Cedric Burnside: Music all at the same time. He would jump off the tractor after being on it for three or four hours. He would jump off because somebody would come and want to meet him and we stayed way

deep off in the sticks and so, if they come to that house, they wanted to be there. So, he would get off the tractor and come and do an interview and maybe play a song or too for the people who would come and then he would jump back on the tractor and go back to work and on the weekends, like I said, they were set up on the front porch or go to a local juke joint and they would just jam out for people and people would come and bring moonshine and some people would come and maybe even bring food and drinks, just in return of listening at the music. It was always a good time when the music was going on.

Jo Reed: When did you start to play?

Cedric Burnside: Wow. I jumped on the drums for the first time when I was about six, seven years old. I was watching my dad and big daddy and uncles play and when they take a break, I always wanted to get on the drums. I drove my mom crazy beating on buckets and pans and stuff in the house. I drove her nuts doing that and I always wanted to jump on the drums when I saw my dad play, but I never had the courage to just get on them. I was ashamed and so, just one day, one evening, I just built up the courage. I don’t really know where it come from. I just felt like I wanted to get on the drums and when my dad took a break, I jumped up there on the drums and yeah, it didn’t matter if I sounded bad. I’m sure it did. But I guess...

Jo Reed: But it felt good.

Cedric Burnside: Yeah. The big part was just having the courage to get up there and do it and the people started saying “Look at that little boy. He’s going to be good someday.” I just loved that music. It always touched my heart. Even today, I love to play my music. When I’m home, I play my music. I take breaks when I’m home, but I have to play my music. It’s a big part of me.

Jo Reed: Well, you have a great line in “Ain’t Gonna Take No Mess.” It’s a great song-- “My school was a juke joint. Blues was all I ever knew.”

Cedric Burnside: From a kid until I was grown.
Cedric Burnside: Yeah. Jo Reed: I really do want to hear about your time as a kid, playing in a juke joint. Cedric Burnside: Yeah. Wow.
Jo Reed: That’s just cool.
Cedric Burnside: Are you sure you’re ready for this?
Jo Reed: I think I might be.

Cedric Burnside: Well, I have to say it was amazing. It was really amazing, adrenaline-pumping little childhood. I started playing in the juke joint about ten years old and my uncle, Gary Burnside-- he’s a couple years older than me-- everybody thinks we’re brothers, but he’s my uncle, and he started playing bass. He was about 12. I was about 10 and we started playing at Junior Kimbrough’s juke joint and we

really became the house band there at a very young age. They would hide us behind the beer coolers when the police come in to check out the place because they didn’t want us to leave. We was the band. So, yeah, that started at a young age and then it wasn’t very long after that-- when I started playing in the juke joints, my dad, Calvin Jackson, he was still playing with my big daddy and so, my dad moved to Europe, a town called Oss, Holland, O-S-S, and he moved there and I guess about a year or so after he moved, I became the drummer for my big daddy and yeah, I was nervous going out of town because I’d never been anywhere.

Jo Reed: You were touring-- you started touring with him.
Cedric Burnside: I started touring with him, yeah. Fat Possum came to the juke joint when I was about

12, 13 years old.
Jo Reed: And that’s the label Fat Possum Records...

Cedric Burnside: Yes. And they came to the juke joint and they saw me playing with my big daddy and they was blown away because like I said, it’s an unorthodox rhythm of music and you have to really be on your P’s and Q’s to play drums behind the music and so, I did it well because I was so used to it. I grew up with it. I watched my dad and I watched my big daddy and I just grew up loving the groove. So, it was in me.

Jo Reed: Well, here’s the question I have for you, Cedric because okay, you toured the world with your grandfather and one tour was called the Juke Joint Tour and you were backing as the drummer your grandfather, Robert Cage, Junior Kimbrough, and Paul Jones, all of them.

Cedric Burnside: Paul “Wine” Jones, wow. Yes.

Jo Reed: I’m just so curious because the drummer is the one who really has to hold it together.

Cedric Burnside: Oh, yeah.

Jo Reed: You’re playing with four different musicians and A, that must have been an incredible learning, but I’m curious how you did it and what that was like.

Cedric Burnside: Wow. That is a great question. That’s a great question. Playing behind all of those cats, it was great. But one of the most challenging things playing behind them is every last one of them had a different rhythm. They had a different change. Their voice was different with music. So, everything was different and I’m not going to lie. It was challenging a lot of times and so, I actually had to go practice with these guys when I had time off, which was very little. I had very little time off. If I had a couple days off, I was practicing either with Paul Wine Jones or Mr. Robert Cage or vice versa, Junior Kimbrough. So, I had to really adapt and that’s kind of what I did. One of my most challenging people to play with was Mr. Robert Cage and for that, I loved it even more because he had the most unique changes and I loved them and if you didn’t really hear him and listen really hard, you would miss that change and believe me, if you missed that change, you were gone. You were off the road, trust me. Yeah. You done ran off the

road if you missed that change. It’s mandatory. But I really enjoyed it playing with all of those cats, man, and they had different stories. They each came from different walks of life, but kind of the same because they struggled in all the walks of life. But it was really good. Yeah. It was really amazing.

Jo Reed: You were Blues Drummer of the Year, what, five years in a row? I could be missing one or two. Cedric Burnside: Yeah. I won about eight times.
Jo Reed: Eight. I thought it was-- five was in a row.
Cedric Burnside: Five in a row, yeah.

Jo Reed: Which is extraordinary.

Cedric Burnside: Yeah. Well, thank the universe for working with me, you know?

Jo Reed: You’re working with the universe.

Cedric Burnside: Yes.

Jo Reed: It has to go both ways.

Cedric Burnside: We got to agree. Yeah.

Jo Reed: So, what compelled you to pick up a guitar and to start playing the guitar and adding that to your repertoire?

Cedric Burnside: All right. Well, several different reasons-- one, I have to just really say this first-- one reason I wanted to play guitar is I just felt it in my bones, in my blood. When I watched my big daddy on the stage, after playing drums behind him for so long, I watched him on that stage and I picked up the guitar for the first time, I guess around 2003, maybe 2002 or something like that and I just really wanted to learn how to play and just playing my music for so long to other people for a long time, I didn’t know how to play guitar and so, I always had a drummer-- I mean, a guitar player and I played drums and sang behind the drums.

Jo Reed: So, you would sing while you...

Cedric Burnside: Yeah. I would sing when I drum and so, I got used to kind of humming out the music because I couldn’t play it and I had to hum it out and whatever guitar player I had, they had to just do it their way by my mouth.

Jo Reed: You mean that’s the way you would teach the songs you composed to the guitar-player—you would hum the music?

Cedric Burnside: Yes....And so, I got kind of frustrated with that. I wanted to show people what I was

thinking in my mind, what I was hearing in my head. I wanted to show people that and I thought to myself what better way to show them than to just learn how to play this guitar and then you can show them and I got in and out the guitar for a while and I didn’t really have time to focus on it like I want to, like I wanted to at that time and so, maybe about ten years ago is when I really sat down and really focused and said that I was going to do this. I was going to try to be good at it and try to be me. I didn’t want to be nobody else. I wanted to play what I heard in my head.

Jo Reed: And that’s what I was going to ask you: what were you able to say with the guitar that you couldn’t with drums?

Cedric Burnside: That’s a great question. It became my newfound love. It definitely became my newfound love and my way of writing really changed. I wrote a lot of times with the drums, of course, because that was my first instrument. But getting to play the guitar and really sing to the melody of the guitar, whatever the guitar do, you try to mimic that and so, that was a new thing for me, but also, a really cool thing. I really loved it and so, I started doing it more, trying to find little melodies to my guitar playing and try to make my voice sound like that key, whatever that was because I couldn’t read music. I can’t read it right now. I know some keys and some I’m still learning, but yeah, it changed my way of writing, changed my way of setting up a song structure-wise. I like to think I got a lot from it and I still got a lot to learn.

Jo Reed: When did you start writing songs?

Cedric Burnside: Oh, wow.

Jo Reed: And what inspires you when you do?

Cedric Burnside: Well, I started writing at a very young age. I think I was about 12, 13 years old when I wrote my first song.

Jo Reed: I didn’t realize that.

Cedric Burnside: I was in so, so much. But yeah, I try to write my music according to what I go through in life. Life throws me all kinds of different curveballs. Every day, every year, something different happens in my life and for the most part, it’s been great things, good things. Bad things have happened in my life. I know it happens in everybody’s life at some point, but that’s really what I try to write about, things that I go through today, things that my family and friends go through and try to talk about things that I hope to inspire people, I hope to inspire and encourage people, inspire people to do great things, to write things, and just to really take life for what it is, try not to be too serious and just try to be the best person that you can be. I think if you can try to be the best person you can be, I think we’ll get through life way better than we’re doing right now.

Jo Reed: Amen. Those are the stories that you tell with your songs.
Cedric Burnside: That’s what I try to put out there with my songs. I try to put out positivity, but I also try to

be real to the fact because everything out there is not positive. Jo Reed: I mean, look at your recent CD, “I Be Trying.” Cedric Burnside: “I Be Trying.”
Jo Reed: There we are.

Cedric Burnside: Exactly.
Jo Reed: Was “Benton County Relic” your first solo CD?
Cedric Burnside: Yes. My first solo CD on guitar was “Benton County Relic.”
Jo Reed: What was that experience like for you? There you are, it’s like “Okay. I’m ready.”

Cedric Burnside: You know, it was really amazing. I have to say, it was really awesome. I’ll tell what made it so awesome to me. What made it so awesome is I got a chance to do me instead of writing stuff with other people or collaborating with other people, I got a chance to do Cedric Burnside. What you see is what you get. What you hear is what you get. The raw, stripped-down blues is where I come from. Guitar and drums, that’s where I come from. So, I wanted to give people that because that’s where my heart is and “Benton County Relic” let me do that. I wanted to show people that not only do I want to play guitar, not only do I want to play drums, I want to play every instrument I can before I leave this world. I want to write songs until I leave this world. I want to just show people that I’m a songwriter, not just a guitarist, drummer. I’m a songwriter, but I like to think of myself as a musician. That’s what musicians do.

Jo Reed: Yeah. That’s just what I was thinking. Yeah. Exactly. Of course, it was nominated for a Grammy, your second, but come on.

Cedric Burnside: There it is again, universe, universe. Jo Reed: Right out of the bag.
Cedric Burnside: Let’s keep on working.

Jo Reed: You’ve said that you want to be authentic and unique, traditional, but also modern and that is-- can be a hard needle to thread and I think you succeed brilliantly, but I’m just curious how you go about doing that.

Cedric Burnside: Yeah. I really don’t even think about the music that I play except that’s what comes out of me. I really just play whatever comes out of me, whatever it sounds like, that’s what it sounds like. I really don’t think of myself as playing the guitar. It’s kind of like the guitar plays me. I just play whatever comes through me and it just comes out. But I don’t really think about the sound. It just comes out that way. It’s just what’s in me. I have had people tell me “Man, wow, your music sounds like old school back in the 60s and the 70s. It sounds so old but so modern,” and so, that’s why I say I’m glad to sound old

school, but modern at the same time. I’m glad to sound that way, but I’m also glad to be different. Most people that listen at music, they have told me that I don’t sound like anybody that they done heard before. So, I got my own thing and I’m proud of it. Some people don’t get it. A lot of people do get it because of the unorthodox rhythm and stuff of the music and just where I come from. I tend to still write my music like that, not trying to keep the tradition alive, per se, but it’s just happening and I’m glad and I’m proud and I thank my big daddy, R.L. Burnside for just believing in me enough. Glad to be a part of the Burnside family. He opened the door for us and for other great musicians who love this style of music as well. So, I’m just happy to be a part of that family and really grateful that the hill country blues is embedded in my heart and it will always be there.

Jo Reed: So, in your recent release, “I Be Trying,” 10 out of the 12 tunes are original and you have a couple of R.L. Burnside, including “Bird Without a Feather,” which is great.

Cedric Burnside: Well, thank you.
Jo Reed: That balance-- you have to be thoughtful when you’re putting a CD together and that balance.

How do you derive that?

Cedric Burnside: Well, I love acoustic music. That’s something I watched as a kid. I watched my big daddy all the time sitting on the porch playing the guitar. Some evenings when he’d get off the tractor, he would sit and play the guitar for 30 or 40 minutes before he’d get cleaned up and I would sit there and watch it. I would be one of my grandchildren sitting there and watching him and so, I always loved that style of music as well, just really stripped down, acoustic blues. But I also love to hear the drums. The drums makes it more hypnotic. So, the balance, it’s just-- it just comes when you least expect it. You can’t just get it in and look for it and wait on it. You’ve just got to let it come. That’s a great question.

Jo Reed: It’s hard. It’s a hard one. What I also love is that on the title track, “I Be Trying,” there’s the younger generation-- your daughter is singing with you and that must be so gratifying.

Cedric Burnside: Makes me so proud.

Jo Reed: Yeah. I can imagine.

Cedric Burnside: It made me so proud. She loves music. I have three daughters and my youngest daughter, Portrika, the one that’s on my album, she loves music. All of my daughters love music. My oldest daughter is Lashiya and my middle daughter is Corlilla. All of them love music, love to sing, but my youngest daughter, she walks around the house singing all the time. She’s in the shower singing all the time and I love it and so, a lot of times, we would sit around in the front room and I would pick up the guitar and just start playing and I would tell her to match the guitar, a tune, “Put your voice with the guitar,” and we would just do that for hours. We would come up with harmonies together for hours and I asked her did she want to do this song with me and of course, she loved it and just knowing that she wanted to do this song with me made me very proud. I thought she would and I’m glad to get the chance to do a song with my daughter.

Jo Reed: What is the difference for you between performing live, which you’re about to do, and recording in a studio?

Cedric Burnside: Well, I would say the difference between that is when I’m in the studio, I can go in any room and just sit there and think of things and write, which is all good. I love to write and I love to think about things, but when I’m on stage, it’s a different energy. I’m creating music in the studio, yes, and the energy is great, but when I take the music energy on stage and mix it with the crowd’s energy, wow, it’s really something. It’s something totally different. It’s really hard to explain because it takes me back and if I see people dancing to this music, that lets me know that they enjoy what I’m doing. They love what I’m doing and seeing them feed off my music, I feed off of them. I feed off their energy and it just makes it be this really big great thing, a great ball of energy and I love to see the looks on their face. They tell me they love it all the time and it makes it worth it. It makes it really worth it.

Jo Reed: Well, you tour a lot. How is life on the road for you? That can be tough.

Cedric Burnside: Yeah. I’m not going to say it’s not tough some days because it’s really tough. It’s definitely work in the sense when you have to travel to do it. Playing my music, it’s not work to me. It’s what I love. It definitely comes from my heart. There’s a lot of times I have to get up at four o’clock in the morning. There’s a lot of times where I have to be at the airport at four-thirty, five o’clock. So, it’s a lot of work. Sometimes I have to jump in the car and leave at five o’clock in the morning and drive to a place to do a show, but I love it. I’ve been doing it all my life, literally all my life.

Jo Reed: This is something I’m just really so curious about because this is Mississippi hill country blues and it comes from a particular place and I’m just so curious how we can hear that place in the music.

Cedric Burnside: Wow. That is a great question. I like that. But that’s very interesting. You can hear it, the sound of that music. It’s easy to pick up because it’s so unique. It’s so unique. It’s really easy to pick up when you’re playing it. The energy, a lot of people call it hypnotic. A lot of people say it puts you in a trance. But whatever it does, I’m glad to do it. I’m really glad to play it and put people in the trance. I hope it’s a really good energy that they feel.

Jo Reed: And then finally because I know you have to go-- you’ve won many awards. We’ve talked about a couple of them. Now, you’re an NEA National Heritage Fellow.

Cedric Burnside: Wow.
Jo Reed: Yeah.
Cedric Burnside: All right.
Jo Reed: If you can just tell me what that means for you...

Cedric Burnside: Before I tell you that, I have to be completely honest-- before I knew I won this award, like I didn’t know nothing about it. I had never heard of this award before in my life and it was such an

honor. When I look at this award, it’s like the biggest thing I can ever receive from anybody, from anything. It’s the highest honor in the nation for your music. I don't know what to say. I’m just so honored and just blown away that they chose me. That goes again with the universe. We’re going to keep on working.

Jo Reed: Well, the universe keeps saying yes.
Cedric Burnside: We’re going to keep on working.
Jo Reed: Cedric, thank you so much.
Cedric Burnside: Thank you.
Jo Reed: Truly, thank you for giving me your time. I really appreciate it. Cedric Burnside: You’re very welcome. Glad I can do it.

Jo Reed: That was Hill Country blues musician, songwriter and 2021 NEA National Heritage Fellow Cedric Burnside. His latest cd is I Be Tryin’. Cedric is one of the nine 2021 National Heritage Fellows. All the fellows are being celebrated in a film called The Culture of America. Actor Jimmy Smits hosts the virtual event which takes viewers on a trip across the country to the many places this year’s National Heritage Fellows live and work. The film streams on November 17 at 8 pm eastern at arts.gov. It’s a joyous moment you won’t want to miss. That’s November 17 at 8 pm eastern at arts.gov. You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed. Stay Safe and thanks for listening.

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