Music Credits:  “Finale,” “Beds and Blankets,” “Phoning Home,” “Something’s Missing” , all from the original cast album of Come from Away, music and lyrics by Irene Sankoff and David Hein.

“NY” composed and performed by Kosta ,T from the cd Soul Sand, used courtesy of the Free Music Archive. 

Jo Reed: Welcome to Art Works the weekly podcast from the National Endowment for the Arts—I’m Josephine Reed.

Many of you will recognize this from the Tony and Olivier Award-winning musical Come From Away-- the play inspired by the aftermath of 9/11 when a small town in Canada welcomed some 7,000 people whose flights had been diverted.  Well, on September 10, Ford’s Theatre will present a one-night concert version of Come From Away in its entirety on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Supported in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, the free non-ticketed event not only so fittingly commemorates 9/11, it also marks the return of live performance for Ford’s Theatre and Come From Away’s return to Broadway later in month.  The concert is the brainchild of Sue Frost of Junkyard Dog Productions, the lead producers of Come From Away, and Paul Tetreault director of Ford's Theatre and they are both joining me now.

Sue and Paul welcome…Paul, I’m going to start with you—September 10 promises to be a momentous evening in Washington DC.

Paul Tetreault: Yeah. I think that we are very excited. First of all, the idea that Sue and I were able to sort of craft this crazy concept that we could bring one of the companies from New York, of Come From Away, back to Washington, where it had its sort of original journey, and bring it back on the eve of the anniversary, the 20^th anniversary-- of 9/11. So, here we are on September 10^th, getting ready to sort of acknowledge the 20-year anniversary of 9/11, but also a kind of welcome back to the arts; not just here in DC, which, of course, we've all been shut down for almost 18 months now, but also kind of a welcome back to Come From Away, coming back to Broadway. So we are very, very excited about all of these things converging on the nation's capital on September 10^th.

Jo Reed: Sue, you've been with Come From Away almost from its inception; I mean, really, pretty close to it.

Sue Frost: Yeah.

Jo Reed: For people who might not know the plot, do you mind just giving us a synopsis of it?

Sue Frost: Sure. Come From Away is based on real events. When the airspace was frozen in the United States after the attacks of 9/11, 38 international jets were diverted to this small town in Newfoundland, called Gander. Gander had a big airport there, because it used to be the place where jets would refuel before they went back and forth across the Atlantic, and they deployed a lot of military airplanes out of there during World War II. So it's a very big airport in a very small town. And 38 jets were diverted there, and the 7,000 people who were on those planes were taken care of, housed, fed, embraced by the people of Gander, Newfoundland. And the show itself is based on real people who were stranded there, real people who took care of them, and we tell a lot of really amazing stories.

Jo Reed: And have some really, really cool songs. <laughs>

Sue Frost: And some really great music. Anybody who knows Newfoundland knows you have to have music, yeah. <laughs>

Jo Reed: Paul, as you mentioned, Ford's Theatre was one of the first in the country in which this show was mounted. Before it was on Broadway, it was at Ford's Theatre. What do you remember about what you thought when you first encountered Come From Away?

Paul Tetreault: Well, what's interesting is, we sort of first encountered it, the Ford's team, at a workshop in New York City. And my folks here brought it to my attention, and said, "This is amazing. It's about the human spirit. It's about human connection." And so we looked at it, and thought, "Oh, my God, we need to do this." And I sort of thought, "Well, we'll do our own production." And then I found out shortly after that, that my good friend Sue Frost, who I've known for too many years for either of us to think about, had the rights. So I called up Sue, and she said, "Well, we've already got a production that's going to happen at La Jolla Playhouse in Southern California, and also Seattle. But we very much want to do the project, A, on the East Coast, before we get to New York; and B, specifically Washington, DC." And I said, "Well, let's talk." So, in short order, we had made an agreement and crafted out a plan for Ford's to be the East Coast stop on this project and this production, as it made its way to Broadway and New York City.

Jo Reed: Given that the attacks on 9/11 took place in New York City and Washington, DC, did you have trepidations about the way these particular cities would respond given that it brings up  15 years after the fact a very painful event that took place in these cities?

Sue Frost: It was something that was always on our mind. When we got the rights to the show, we knew we loved the show, we knew we loved the story of it and how it was being told, but we also knew that everybody was going to call it the "9/11 musical," and that wasn't necessarily going to be helpful for us. It's really not about 9/11. It's really about 9/12 and the days thereafter, and the positive stories that came out of it. But we knew right from the beginning that we needed to be very cautious, in terms of how we shared this story. And when Paul reached out to us and said, "I would really like Ford's to be a part of it," we knew we wanted to go to Washington, DC, before New York, because, of course, Washington, DC, was impacted by these events, as well, and it was going to give us an opportunity to explore. And one of the things that Ford's did for us, which was really tremendous, is they arranged, first and foremost, for our company to tour the Pentagon and to meet with some Pentagon survivors; and also, we did a special, private, invited performance for folks from the Pentagon. And we learned a great deal from that, and we made some really tremendous friends from that, who really helped us communicate with the 9/11 community in New York, before we even got there. And it was very strategic and very important for us that we approached all of this carefully and with respect, and our experience at Ford's was really instrumental in helping us negotiate all of that.

Jo Reed: Well, Paul, when it played at Ford's, it literally was during the 15^th anniversary of 9/11.

Paul Tetreault: Yes, right.

Jo Reed: What was the audience response to the play when it opened in DC?

Paul Tetreault: Well, I mean, it was tremendous. And I think we, as Sue and all of her team in New York, and the team here at Ford's, there was a great deal of... "anxiety" is probably too strong a word, but just hesitancy, concern, about, how is this going to be received? We knew, because we had the sort of standing ovations and the huge ticket sales from the West Coast, but 9/11 has a very unique relationship with, as you noted, with Washington and New York City. And we were concerned about, how is that going to be received? And really, it's a testament to the power of this production, the power of this piece, that the response was overwhelming. It was powerful, moving, heart-wrenching, tear-jerking-- everything you can imagine. And the beauty of this piece is, it's all there. I mean, it runs you through the whole gamut of emotions, and fortunately leaves you at the end with such hope and promise and belief in the human spirit and the human condition, and when you leave Come From Away, I think you leave with this sense of, "Wow, we really all came together as a people, as members of the human race, in those days following 9/11." And you sort of leave with the hope that we would always have that response to that kind of tragedy. So it was an extraordinary run here. It was completely sold out. We ended up extending a week. We had, as Sue mentioned, a private performance that I think was still one of the most profound experiences for the artists and everyone involved, to perform to a theater of only families of survivors, families who were affected, people that were in the Pentagon that day…

Sue Frost: And those who were lost; families of those who were lost.

Paul Tetreault: Yes. Something that we could never have imagined and I think, as Sue mentioned, informed the production in that experience here at Ford's.

Jo Reed: And do you think that's why, Sue--you've taken this around the country, around the world-- this has the response of the audience it does? I mean, how would you describe what's at the heart of this show?

Sue Frost: You know, I think, probably first and foremost, is the resilience of the human spirit, and how much we can do if we all pull together for the greater good. I think, one of the things that it's so extraordinary about this show is, everybody who was alive on that day, of a certain age, has a memory. And whether they were in New York, whether they were in Washington, DC, whether they were in London, or Toronto, wherever they were, they have a memory of that day, and they have a story. And so, what Come From Away does is it amplifies stories, and it also encourages more stories. And it inspires people to do better, to be better, to reach out to somebody that may be in need. And it's not a Pollyanna thing at all. It is a truly sort of, in your heart, you come away feeling better about the human race after seeing the show.  

Jo Reed: Yeah. I think it is uplifting, most certainly, but it's also earned, if you know what I mean.

Sue Frost: Yeah. It's because it's true. These are real people. These are real stories. It's true, all of it, you know? I mean, and it's amplified by the audience walking out and thinking about their stories, and thinking about what they might do to help somebody, you know, and where they were, and where they're going, and how they can understand each other better, you know? We've always been inspired by the stories that come back to us from the audience, and they're real, they're genuine, and heartfelt.

Jo Reed: Yeah, I was going to say, I think the way the story was created is key to the authentic feelings that it generates. <laughs>

Sue Frost: Yeah.

Jo Reed: Because the book, music, and lyrics, by Irene Sankoff and David Hein, they spent a lot of time in Gander, talking to both those who lived there, but they did it at the tenth anniversary, and a lot of those people on the planes had returned to Gander.

Sue Frost: Yes. It was a big commemoration ceremony there, and many of the-- they call them the Plane People. Many of the Plane People had come back. And it was sort of a fun story. David and Irene, when they first heard about this idea, and decided to go to Gander for the tenth anniversary, they really weren't sure it was a musical, do you know? They were thinking along the lines of, perhaps, a play. And at the commemoration ceremony, at the end, one of the Newfoundland bands started to play, and the entire hockey rink of thousands and thousands of people, everybody started to dance. And they said, "You know what? You can't tell this story without music, because music is also just part of that human spirit and how we express emotions bigger than words." And it was being there-- they were going to go there for a week. They ended up there a month, because they just kept hearing more stories, and wanting to include all of them. They tell this great story that, when they first started writing, when they got back, they were 600 pages, and they hadn't gotten off the planes yet, you know? <laughs> So they had to come back, and most of the work we did developing the show was editing, editing, editing, and distilling the words down, and distilling the stories down, and figuring out how to tell this story in a comprehensive way, without going for hours and hours, you know.

Jo Reed: Well, Paul, you had this idea that, "Okay, this is what we're going to do to commemorate the 20^th anniversary of 9/11." So, why don't you share how this evening is going to unfold?

Paul Tetreault: Well, it's on September 10^th, which works out perfectly, because it's actually a Friday evening. It's going to be dusk, so it'll be 6:00 P.M. Hopefully, people will come early. It's a completely free concert, right in front of the Lincoln Memorial, on the steps there, and in front of the Reflecting Pool. And there's going to be jumbotrons, and there's speakers, and so we will be able to accommodate thousands of people down there. And there'll probably be a little preshow on the jumbotrons before the concert actually begins. We've been working with Sue's folks in New York about some material that we have, video material, about interviews with some of the creatives and some of the storytellers-- some really interesting stuff. So I think, if folks come down to the Mall early, they'll be able to participate in that and see that. And then the concert will start right around six o'clock, and it's performed straight through, without an intermission. And I think sitting at the steps at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial, at sunset, on the eve of 9/11, I think could be pretty profound, and I hope folks will all come down and participate, because this is sort of a gift to the region from Ford's Theatre and the Come From Away company.

Jo Reed: Now, it's being presented as a concert-- some costume, but pretty much as a concert. The play has 12 actors that play multiple roles, so costumes and lighting and choreography is kind of key for us knowing who's who, and how is this going to work if it's presented as a concert? I guess I'm throwing that to you, Sue.

Sue Frost: Sure. We have a little experience with it. Part of our-- actually, part of our journey to Broadway, when we closed at Ford's, before we went up to Toronto, where we were going to do the show before we came to New York, we went to Gander. And we presented a concert version of the show to the people of Gander in the hockey arena, and it was one of the things that was so important to David and Irene, was to really get the Newfoundlanders' buy-in in the show at that. And it was an extraordinary weekend. None of us had met any of the real people from Newfoundland, and trying to do what we did on a rock in the middle of the ocean was really kind of amazing, but we did it. And it tells the whole story. And there's a little bit of-- I call it "mic-ography," versus "chair-ography," where, if you've seen the show, you understand there's a lot of chairs moving around, and now there's a lot of people running mic to mic. They'll be using costume pieces, so you'll get the sense of it. And we watched it. We've seen it work. We've seen it work in Gander. We also did a concert version of the show for a week in St. John's, with a Canadian company, so we know that the story transcends the staging, transcends the lights and the costumes and everything else. The story works. And we did it for those Newfoundlanders, and they were on their feet probably 10 minutes before the end of the show. <laughs>

Jo Reed: I have to say, in preparation for this conversation, I've been listening to the cast album a lot, and, oh, my God, it's captivating. I mean, no matter how many times I'm listening to it, at certain moments, I'm still reaching for the Kleenex. <laughs>

Sue Frost: Oh, you know, and I tell you, one of the other things that's happening on September 10^th is, David and Irene have just realized another dream of theirs, which was to create a recording of Newfoundland cover bands performing the songs from Come From Away. And two of the songs are going to be released on the 10^th, and then the entire recording's going to be released the following Friday. But listening to this music performed by Newfoundland artists is a whole other trip, and it is really fun and really exiting.

Jo Reed: Oh, I can't wait. That will be very, very cool. Okay, I'm curious. Obviously, people are rehearsing now. What about pandemic protocols? How are you adjusting for that, as both of you, you're reopening theaters?

Paul Tetreault: So, obviously, when Sue and I originally talked, we were sort of feeling high about the vaccinations, and we hadn't been introduced to the Delta variant yet, and we were really feeling like that wasn't a major concern. Obviously, as we have evolved over the last several weeks, the Delta variant has become more of an issue, and we have had to require vaccine mandates for everyone participating in the project. All of the artists, all of the staff working, will have vaccine mandates and negative COVID tests. We are requiring, or suggesting, masks for everyone attending the performance. And we have a VIP section, where we are highly recommending vaccines, and also masks, for the sort of VIP section. So there's a lot of protocols that we have had to put in place over the last several weeks that we didn't originally anticipate, but obviously, after the year and a half that we've all been through, I think we've learned how to be nimble and do what is necessary.

Jo Reed: I think "nimble" and "pivot" are the two words <laughs> of the past 18 months.

Sue Frost: You know what? I cannot wait until I don't have to use either of those words ever again. <laughs>

Paul Tetreault: Or "unprecedented."

Jo Reed: That's another one. <laughs>

Sue Frost: Yeah.

Jo Reed: Sue, what about for the performers?

Sue Frost: Well, everybody coming back, in all of our companies, will be vaccinated. We also have a fairly rigorous testing schedule. They'll be tested before they come to rehearsal; they'll be tested regularly in rehearsal. We're taking whatever steps we need to do to make sure their travel is safe, their hotels are safe. We take the health and safety of our company very seriously, and the audience, as well. And so, masks when you aren't performing. Anybody who is working with them backstage will most likely be wearing a mask; certainly, all the folks who come in direct contact, if they're not on the stage, performing. Just out of an abundance of caution. Yeah. And this company is a combination of some of our Broadway company and some of our touring company, and they'll be coming back from that concert and going back into rehearsal with both of their different companies, so we'll be very careful with them as they do all of this.

Jo Reed: One of the many things that I'm mindful of, as 9/11 approaches-- and New York is my hometown, and it's how theater came out and came together for the city, for the first responders. I mean, not just theater; musicians, certainly-- poets, artists in general, performing artists in particular-- and how the arts just have this ability to bring us together, to provide solace; to give expression in those moments when we ourselves can't quite find the words to say what's in our hearts.

Sue Frost: It's the great unifier, isn't it? It is the way you transcend differences. It is the way-- in many ways, it's how you can communicate without words: with music, with dance, all of that, you know? I think-- it elevates us from the mundane. It takes us away from it, and helps us sort of restore our spirits, as well. And artists are just incredibly generous-- they're generous with their art, you know? And part of it is a need to share it. So, just as three days after the attacks, Broadway came back, because the city needed it, I think that we're not going to be truly back and functioning from this pandemic until artists are back in theaters, in concert halls, and doing what they do, and audiences are able to gather together and experience it together. We have spent a lot of time by ourselves, looking at screens, for the last 18 months, and it's time for us to get out and rejoin the human race. And I'm truly thrilled that we're going to have this opportunity to share this story with so many people, in such a majestic and profound way. So it's very exiting; very exciting for us.

Jo Reed: And I'm also so mindful of how the performing arts have borne such a burden this past year. I know, Paul, you and Ford's Theatre, and other theaters, have done... okay, I'm going to say "pivot," but you have, and you've brought work online. But, man, what a year it's been.

Paul Tetreault: Yeah, it's sort of interesting, when you think about sort of the juxtaposition of September 11^th and Come From Away, and then where we've been over the last 18 months, and you talk about the power of the arts. And we saw, as you noted, firsthand, the sort of power of the arts after 9/11, and the amount of product that came out of 9/11, and was sort of dedicated and about all of the various components of that, and the various feelings that we had from that. And what we've learned, I think, over the last 18 months is not just the power of the arts, which we knew about previously, but also how much we desperately need, as human beings, the arts, and how we have all struggled over the last 18 months. And yes, we've pivoted, and we've tried to do things online, and we've tried to present other ways to give the artform out, but there is nothing like sitting in an audience, whether you're on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial or in Ford's Theatre, surrounded by other audience members in dialogue with a piece of art. And I think that's something that, when we are able to get back, beginning with September 10^th, here in Washington, and shows coming back online in the DC region, shows coming back online on Broadway, we are going to get back in those theaters, because we have such a hunger for the arts and what they do to feed our soul.

Jo Reed: And when you say "back online," you're really talking about doors opening.

Paul Tetreault: Yes

Jo Reed: And Come From Away is opening the season for Ford's Theatre, and I know every season is put together very carefully, but this one has to have so much more meaning.  Just quickly walk us through the season. What else is on the docket for Ford's?

Paul Tetreault: Well, we are going into rehearsal, actually, next week for our first play of the year, after the concert of Come From Away. We'll be opening a new play, My Lord, What a Night, about the special relationship between Marian Anderson and Albert Einstein. And that begins performances October 1^st. We will then do our annual production, bringing back to the stage, for the sort of 40^th year, our annual production of A Christmas Carol, which the surrounding area missed so much last year. We will be doing The Mountaintop in the winter slot, which is a play about the last night of Martin Luther King's life, set at the Lorraine Hotel.. And we will close the season with a brand-new musical, Grace, about the lives of an African-American family very much involved in the restaurant business. And that show actually is on a sort of pre-Broadway trajectory, as well, and so we're excited to be presenting that production, as well.

Jo Reed: And are you requiring vaccinations for audience members?

Paul Tetreault: We are. We just announced last week, following in the steps of Broadway, and following in the steps of all of our colleagues in the DMV region, we will be requiring vaccinations for all patrons, or a negative COVID test for those who either are unable to get vaccinated, or young people under 12 years old.

Jo Reed: And, Sue, Come From Away, as you said, it's going to reopen on Broadway after quite some time, and when are you reopening?

Sue Frost: Our first performance on Broadway will be September 21^st, and then our tour will reopen in Memphis on October 5^th. So we're very excited about that.

Jo Reed: All right. First Sue, and then Paul: What are you most looking forward to on September 10^th? What moment?

Sue Frost: Oh, when that bodhran starts, and thousands of people are there to listen to that heartbeat of the show. And I think it's going to be extraordinary.

Jo Reed: And, Paul, for you?

Paul Tetreault: Yeah, I'm sorry. I hate to be boring, but I have to agree with Sue. There is so much going into this one, simple concert. But I say "one simple concert" from the audience perspective, but the details and the amount of work that has gone into it from the Ford's team, and from the New York team, has really been extraordinary. So, for me, I will take a deep breath when the performance starts, I think I will be able to say, "We've made it, it's here," and I will actually be able to relax and just let that show wash over me, as I know it will, and really enjoy it.

Jo Reed: I've always loved the title Come From Away. Sue, can you just explain, in case it needs explanation, what it means?

Sue Frost: Oh, sure, because it's not a title that everybody understands. Newfoundlanders call people who are not from Newfoundland come-from-aways. That's exactly what it is. And so this story is about 7,000 come-from-aways who descended on this tiny town. And the mayor at the time, Claude Elliott, who is featured in our show and has become a dear friend to all of us, he says, "You know, on September 12^th, we had 7,000 strangers who became friends, and when they left, they were family."

Jo Reed: I think that is a great place just to end it. Thank you so much, Sue. Thank you so much, Paul.

Sue Frost: Thank you. It's been a pleasure to chat with you.

Jo Reed: I am very much looking forward to September 10^th.

Sue Frost: It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun.

Paul Tetreault: Don't miss it.

Jo Reed: I'm not. I would not miss this for the world.

Sue Frost: Oh, boy. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

Jo Reed: Yeah, me, too.

Paul Tetreault: Looking forward to meeting you, Jo.

That was Sue Frost from Junkyard Dog Productions—the lead producers of Come From Away and Paul Tetreault—director of Ford’s Theater.  Once again, you can see Come From Away: In Concert at the Lincoln Memorial  on September 10 at 6:00 p.m.  Supported in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, this free non-ticketed event will presented rain or shine.

You heard excerpts of Come From Away from the original cast album.

You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed, stay safe and thanks for listening.

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Music Credit: “NY” composed and performed by Kosta T from the cd Soul Sand, used courtesy of the Free Music Archive. 

 (Music Up)

Jo Reed: Welcome to Arts Works the weekly podcast from the National Endowment for the arts. I’m Josephine Reed. Today, we’re revisiting my interview with Iroquois raised bead worker, teacher and 2020 National Heritage Fellow Karen Anne Hoffman.

For past twenty-five years or so, Karen Anne Hoffman has found her artistic voice in creating works of art using the technique of Iroquois raised bead work.  Raised bead work is unique to the Iroquois confederacy.The beadwork created by Iroquois consists of lines of beads that arch above the material which give the art work dimensionality.  Karen Anne’s work reimagines the existing forms while remaining deeply rooted in Iroquois culture and traditions.  Some pieces recall ancient legends, others refer to current social issues, and still others explore the future of the Iroquois.  Her art has been exhibited in many museums across the country and is part of the permanent collection of the National Museum of the American Indian in Washington DC and Chicago’s Field Museum.  A three-time master-teacher in Wisconsin’s folk arts apprenticeship program, Karen Anne is both knowledgeable and passionate about Native American art in general and Iroquois raised beadwork in particular.  I spoke with her recently, and  we began our conversation with a little bit of history about the Oneida nation’s journey west to Wisconsin. 

Karen Ann Hoffman: The homeland for we Oneida of Wisconsin is back east in what they now call New York State, but in about 1820 there was an issue, shall we say, around the Erie Canal, and as a result of those issues the Oneida Nation that lived in New York at the time was removed from their homelands. In about 1820, a good chunk of Oneidas began a three-wave journey from the homelands to the state of Wisconsin. Simultaneously, some of the Oneidas remained in their homeland and are still there today, and another group of Oneida moved up into Canada, another part of the original homeland at the Thames, and yet another group of Oneida was forcibly removed out into the Indian territories in Kansas and Oklahoma, but I come from the groups, the three waves, that left New York and came to Wisconsin in the 1820s, and that’s how Iroquois raised beadwork comes to have a home in Wisconsin.

Jo Reed: Now I’d like you to describe Iroquois raised beadwork and also explain to us what makes it distinct.

Karen Ann Hoffman: Iroquois raised beadwork is a beautiful, rare form of Haudenosaunee beadwork. Its forms and designs stretch back ten-, twelve-, fourteen-thousand years. We’re still using shapes and contemporary beadwork today that were originally scratched into rock or etched into a shell; those forms, those cultural content pieces stay with us across the millennia, but the materials that we use to express those ideas change. So now, instead of scratching into a shell or etching into a rock face, I’m privileged to use a steel needle, some cotton thread, some beautiful glass beads, and I am able to execute those forms in Iroquois raised beadwork, but I think we all know that steel needles, cotton thread and beads were gifts of the colonizers, and those gifts were distributed actually all across the world. What’s interesting to me is that those selfsame materials distributed to cultures all across the world produce distinctive, rich art forms, depending on the hands in which they landed and the fingers that are now executing the art form. So Iroquois raised beadwork takes our beads, and instead of sewing them flat onto a surface like many others do, we’re the only nations that use our beads in a dimensional pile, the exuberant three-dimensional fashion, so that our work is thick and rich and stands above the base fabric upon which we sew; that’s what makes it visually distinctive.

Jo Reed: Was creating beadwork something that you learned at home when you were growing up?

Karen Ann Hoffman: No, it isn’t, and in fact it’s my belief that Iroquois raised beadwork in this highly arched form wasn’t present in Wisconsin until the 1990s or so. You see, the high point, the exuberant point, of Iroquois raised beadwork really is in the middle 1800s; that’s when the form reaches what I call its zenith. We Wisconsin Oneida were gone from the homeland for 50 years by the time that happened, so the beadwork that we did wasn’t the same as this exuberant form that was occurring out east, back east, back in the homeland, and it wasn’t until, in my case, Samuel Thomas and his mother, Lorna Hill, came from Niagara Falls, Ontario, to Oneida, Wisconsin and gifted us with raised beadwork that the form really took fire in Wisconsin.

Jo Reed: Can you tell me how it felt to you when you first learned raised beadwork from Sam Thomas and Lorna Hill? Did it feel like, "Oh, man, I am home"?

Karen Ann Hoffman: Do you know what it felt like? I fell in love, that immediate warmth, that immediate desire to know more, that idea that you cannot separate yourself from the object of your love. That’s what it felt like to me. I just had to learn more and more and more about this. I think I was the right student at the right time with the right teachers and the right support system, and all of those things came together to give me the opportunity to really learn and really explore this amazing art form, and I’m really grateful for those happenstances of circumstance that came my way.

Jo Reed: You had said that there are kind of three strands of Iroquois raised beadwork, and you described some of the ancient art and the way it was reinvigorated in the mid nineteenth century, and then there are two other strands and I’d like you to describe those.

Karen Ann Hoffman: So what I talk about are, yeah, the popular form of Iroquois raised beadwork, "whimsies," a lot of people know it as, tourist-trade items that were made for sale deliberately by the excellent businesspeople that my people come from, so it was a deliberate attempt to produce and sell items to the tourist trade; that’s one stream. The other stream that I’m aware of are personal items, regalia items, ceremonial items; those kinds of things are typically not for sale outside of the community, although they may well be traded for within the community. The clothing that somebody wears when they’re married, when they die, when their babies are named, those pieces of culture aren’t for sale but they are gifted and handed down from generation to generation within the community. And the third stream and the stream that interests me the most is a contemporary form of Iroquois raised beadwork where, being deeply connected to the past, the form is taken, explored, pushed, expanded and reimagined against contemporary life. So much of the work that I do is in response to contemporary issues because we as Native people live in the middle of contemporary issues and they have social impact on us, and like artists all over the world we respond to that social impact with our art.

Jo Reed: Can you walk me through your work practices? How do you begin? How do you know when an idea is right and you want to go with it?

Karen Ann Hoffman: You know because it won’t let you alone. <laughs> So I’ll tell you about the piece that I’m currently working on. Most of my pieces take about a year to sew but they percolate in my mind for a lot longer than that. The piece that I’m currently working on arises out of this situation. I live in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, and a couple years ago there was a designation by the state of Wisconsin that the university from which I graduated, UW Stevens Point, was constructed on a mass Native burial. Those Natives had died in the late 1800s of scarlet fever, and, not being allowed into town to buy groceries, they certainly weren’t allowed into town for burial, so their bodies were disposed of in an abandoned quarry. As the city of Stevens Point began to grow, that quarry got turned into the Stevens Point’s garbage dump. As the city began to grow even further and that kind of unused land got plotted off and sold off, the burial was never able to be sold because everybody knew that there were bodies underneath of it. Ultimately, that land by the 1890s was given to the state of Wisconsin, and in the early 1890s they built the Stevens Point Normal School or Teachers College on it, and that college has continued from the early 1890s to this very day to educate students from the state of Wisconsin and across the United States, and people don’t recognize that every day, every week, every semester thousands of us walk on the bones of those poor dead Indians. So I’ve been sitting with that idea for a couple of years, and that compels me to make a piece of art to honor and acknowledge those dead, and what happens for my process is these ideas, these things, percolate in the back of my mind and I don’t know that I’m consciously thinking of them all the time but very often a completed piece will appear in my head; whether I’m sleeping or awake I’ll just suddenly see a completed piece and that’s when I know it’s time to take out the needle and thread and begin the work. And then the next year is consumed with pattern making and bead-pattern design and the actual execution of the piece, and that’s what I’m in the middle of right now.

Jo Reed: Do you sketch it all? Do you draw on the fabric? How do you approach the fabric? Do you make patterns? What’s the next step?

Karen Ann Hoffman: Right. So each piece that I make I’m only interested in making once, which is a great way of saying you get the opportunity to create an entirely new object every time you sit down to bead, and that means you get to figure out an entirely new pattern and construction form and that means you get to explore the geometry of your beadwork and make patterns and make mock-ups and find errors and make corrections and spend all of that time constructing the body of the object. Now that body of an object is also decorated with beadwork embellishment, and when I do a beadwork design I don’t like to bead the same thing twice either, so all of those designs are original to me as well, and that means I get to spend a lot of time looking at whatever it is I’m going to bead. If it’s a tree I have to know what is it that makes an oak tree an oak tree and not a maple; how can you simplify that form down to its very essence so that the beads that I’m working with can do their best job explaining what an oak tree really looks like, and that’s a lot of trial and error; that’s a lot of sketching; that’s a lot of practice beading; that’s a lot of making an object just to see if I have it right before I make the object that I need to make.

Jo Reed: So your current project that honors the Native Americans who died of scarlet fever, enter in unnamed graves, what's the structure of that particular piece? Is it going to be an urn? Is it going to be a mat?

Karen Ann Hoffman: So for this particular object it will be a medicine bag, but a medicine bag that would have been used by the displaced folks who lived in this area in the 1820s, ‘30s and ‘40s, so I’ve spent a lot of time looking at what those old skin bags were and how they’re made and what they need to have to be properly constructed, and so I’m doing my very best to re-create for those poor, unrested Indians a bag that can be sung and danced for them so that they can finally sleep, and it will need to be a bag that they’ll recognize.

Jo Reed: What about color choices? So much of your work is beautifully vivid, but you tend to limit the number of colors in each piece.

Karen Ann Hoffman: I do, I do, and I always say I work in what I call a dichromatic color scheme because I think a couple of things, and one of the things I think is that, no disrespect to the people who are amazing in their use of color, but for me color can be a distraction from the elegance and accuracy of a design. A lot of technique can be hidden by color, and so I like to be able to focus on the techniques and the accuracy of the needle placement so I limit my color palette probably to two, at the most three colors, and I always think too that I’m not in charge of choosing those colors; the idea, the concept, the story, the tale, the tradition-- that chooses the colors. So when I made a bag or an urn, an urn that talked about the water, obviously it was blue, of course the accents were silver because water and froth and foam are those colors. It wasn’t up to me, it was up to the idea, and I just have to get out of the way and represent for the idea.

Jo Reed: I'm wondering, Karen Ann, when you’re beading it will take a year for you to do a project. Is it meditative when you’re beading? I’m just curious; what’s going through your mind as you’re doing this?

Karen Ann Hoffman: I think that “meditative” is a good word, but another word that I like to bring to the table is “committed” because when you sit down with a piece and you know you’re going to live with it for a year, it’s going to live with you, it’s going to occupy all your free time, you have to be committed to that. It’s kind of like entering a marriage; you know there are going to be rough spots and joyful spots, but you’re committed to seeing it through. And so I take that approach once I start with these pieces, but the actual sewing, sewing, sewing, sewing, sewing, sewing, sewing does become very meditative to me. I think it must be like a pianist practicing their E-flat scale. It’s challenging, it’s repetitive, it’s beautiful, and it brings that music deep into your body and your soul, and once it hits that core, you just go with it.

Jo Reed: Everything you do with your art is absolutely deliberate and you encircle the central images you create with beads. I'm thinking of Winter Mat, for example.

Karen Ann Hoffman: Yes. Yes.

Jo Reed: There’s a reason for that and I’d like you to share that.

Karen Ann Hoffman: This is the way I understand that encirclement of beads. To me, every really good piece of Iroquois raised beadwork that I’ve ever seen is encircled in some way or another and the way it comes to me is to understand that each one of those beads stands for all the Iroquois people that ever were, all of us that currently are, and all of those whose faces we have yet to see, all of the unborn, but we’re all connected in this really beautiful, connected circle. What’s important to remember is that when you look at that encirclement, it’s not important to pick out an individual bead and say, “Oh, that’s Karen Ann Hoffman,” or, “Oh, that one must be her dad or her grandma,” or, “These are her children’s children’s children.” What’s important to remember is that each bead has a significant and equal responsibility and if any one of those beads got plucked out, the entire encirclement would suffer, and what that says to me is that that’s my responsibility as a good Iroquois person. If I or any of us don’t live up to our responsibilities to the whole, if we fail, if we fall out, we impact every other person in that chain, from the past, of the present, and into the future. So it’s about knowing that you as an individual are not the important part but that we as the community are.

Jo Reed: I have a sense that could be why three different times you’ve been chosen as a master teacher in the apprenticeship program.

Karen Ann Hoffman: I like to try to think I pass these ideas that were gifted to me on to another generation of beaders, and I really hope that that’s true because the other thing that I truly do understand is that this beadwork, these pieces that come out of my fingers don’t represent me in particular; they represent us as a whole.

Jo Reed: We’ve mentioned the dimensionality of Iroquois raised beadwork, but you’ve brought that to another level in any number of pieces and you actually created the beaded-urn form. I’d love for you to first describe that form, but then if you can to share the impulse behind it, behind giving that much structure to the beadwork.

Karen Ann Hoffman: Well, I would say I didn’t create that form but I may have reinvigorated it. I was at the New York State Museum, I’m going to say, 20 years ago, and they were nice enough to let me rattle around in their archives, and in that museum I saw a very small dimensional birch-bark container, and that was my first inspiration. It was a seed holder; it’s four or five sides sewn together, open at the top, a bulbous form at the bottom, dated to come from, if memory serves, the early 1500s, so it was a very old piece and I thought about that piece for a really long time. Then sometime later I bumped into some pieces that were to have been created in the early 1800s, and they were called jardinières and they were similar in form, the similar bulbous, maybe six-inch-tall, four- or so sided vessel, but what I did was I took that form, I blew it up, I exaggerated, I made the bulb huge; I made it 18 inches tall, not 6. I made it 15 inches wide, not 4. I made the corners, the ears twist and turn in a way that had not been done before, so that’s where I take these very old and traditional ideas and forms and I move them into this third stream of contemporary beadwork, deeply connected but pushing forward, pushing forward, and that’s what I love to do.

Jo Reed One of your pieces Wampum Urn was placed in the permanent collection of the National Museum of the American Indian here in Washington. Tell me what it meant for you when you found out that piece was chosen.

Karen Ann Hoffman: That was orchestrated for me with the guidance and the help of Emil Her Many Horses, an amazing beader that I had met when I was exhibiting at the Eiteljorg Indian Market in Indianapolis. Emil’s curator down there at the Smithsonian, and I have a high respect for the work that he did. Now Emil encouraged me as a young beader, so I screwed up my courage and I made a proposal that Emil should please take to his board and ask them to buy that piece, and when they did I kind of knew that my dreams were real possibilities. Other people judged that that piece of work was worthy of an institution like the National Museum of the American Indian; that meant that other people judged that my artwork had reached a professional form, and that validated my suspicions about myself and gave me the courage to step forward and pursue other high ideals. So I’m very grateful to Emil for showing that faith in me and letting me know that others saw me as I dreamed that I could be.

Jo Reed: I also think it is fabulous that your work was shown a few years ago at the Ukrainian National Museum in Chicago.

Karen Ann Hoffman: I know. That was so awesome.

Jo Reed: I think that is great because of course they’re known for their beadwork too.

Karen Ann Hoffman: <laughs> And I’ll tell you that-- do you have a moment for the story?

Jo Reed: Oh, yeah, please.

Karen Ann Hoffman: Okay. I got a call from Colette Lemmon who is curator at the Iroquois Indian Museum in Howes Cavern, [ph?] New York, and Colette said that she was working with someone else and they were putting together an exhibit that was going to be at the Ukrainian National Museum in Chicago, and the theme of it was Women with Courage and did I think I’d like to be involved in that, and I had to tell her, “Jeez, Colette, I appreciate that you thought of me but I’m sitting here in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, fat and sassy. I am not a woman of courage, and thank you but I just don’t think this is for me, I just don’t think I fit,” and Colette was very gracious, but at that same time my dad was real sick, real sick with Parkinson’s; it was getting real bad. And my mother, his wife of-- since she was 15 and by then they were in their eighties, his constant companion, never, never left his side. He stayed in my mom’s home until the moment that he passed, and I looked at her and her daily caregiving, that loving, difficult, heartbreaking job that she did without complaint, and I thought to myself, there is a woman of courage.” And at that moment I saw a beautiful pink urn, gorgeous and rounded in the belly like women are with ears and arms that reach out to hold in a beautiful French-silk pink fabric that was beautiful and strong, and I knew that I had to create Feminine Balance to separate those women and that courage. So I called Colette and I said, “I think I have an idea,” and they were gracious enough to include it in that really amazing exhibit.

Jo Reed:  Often art by Native Americans is sort of put to one side as a craft rather than a fine art, and I know you have thoughts about this and I’d like for you to share them.

Karen Ann Hoffman: I know that really highly executed Native American fine art can go head to head, toe to toe, heart to heart with any fine art from any portion of the world, and I think if we could learn to address fine art with the same critical eyes and the same kind of value system that we apply when we’re looking at the Dutch masters, we could begin to understand that the work that comes from contemporary Native hands is every bit as significant, meaningful, beautiful and technically executed as any other art form. Like people can diagnose the brush stroke in a Rubens [ph?] as compared to the plop of a Jackson Pollock, you can tell Iroquois raised beadwork between communities, between artists, between brush strokes or, shall I say, needle sticks. You can hold our art right next to anyone else’s and we will stand tall because we stand for our people.

Jo Reed: Karen Ann, your work is visually stunning, and it’s also for you not the point that it is; that’s not what you’re going after.

Karen Ann Hoffman: <laughs> Yeah. Well, thank you, <laughs> In my mind, fine art needs to be three things. One of those things it has-- is that it has to be visually attractive; that doesn’t necessarily mean pretty, but it has to catch the eye or no one will engage with it, so it has to be beautiful, it has to be intentional, by which I mean crafted of the very best materials with the very best technique that the artist can muster, and the third thing it needs to be is meaningful, and to me that is that it has a reason to exist, an idea to share, something to relate to an audience about. And so I like for my things to be striking so that someone will take a second look, but I’m more interested in the execution and the meaning.

Jo Reed: You’ve talked about how you see yourself and your work as part of a continuum from the past into the future but I wonder, if you think about your part of that continuum, what would your goal be for that?

Karen Ann Hoffman: My goal for my part in that continuum is to not disappoint those who have put so much faith and trust in me. I recently said to somebody about another thing that I’m working on, “Oh, don’t worry,” I told them, “I have faith in you,” and then I laughed and I said, “The biggest burden in the world is when somebody tells you they have faith in you.” Well, I’ve been told that people have faith in me, and so my part of the continuum is to shoulder that responsibility in a really good and strong way that doesn’t highlight me necessarily but highlights all of those who have come before and shed some light for those who are yet to come, and if I can do that well then the pieces will live and they will live up to that responsibility. Whether anybody knows my name in the future or not isn’t really very important; what’s important is that they know what I was taught and what I’m trying to pass on. And those teachings did not come from me; I’m just a needle-and-thread conduit.

Jo Reed: What did it mean for you to be named a 2020 National Heritage Fellow for your raised beadwork?

Karen Ann Hoffman: I was very honored by that because I know full well that that honor is built on the talents of thousands of Haudenosaunee artists from the past, that are currently practicing, and that will practice in the future, and I shoulder this responsibility gratefully and solemnly and will do my very best to live up to the representation that I’ve been gifted with. I think it’s my job to represent for all of the amazing talent that surrounds us, and so I appreciate that opportunity.

Jo Reed: Karen Ann, it is an honor that is so well deserved, and your work is stunningly beautiful and visually striking and stays in my mind; I really see it for a long time after I stop seeing it, if you know what I mean, so I think that’s wonderful.

Karen Ann Hoffman: I’m very, very pleased to hear you say that, and I think that will please my teachers and that’s a good thing. Thank you.

Jo Reed: Thank you, Karen Ann.

Karen Ann Hoffman: You’re most welcome.

Jo Reed: That is Iroquois raised bead worker, teacher, and 2020 NEA Heritage Fellow Karen Anne Hoffman.

Don’t forget to check out the our recently names 2021 NEA National Heritage Fellows—as ever they come from around the country with a range of artistic backgrounds and traditions from blues guitar to Irish flute to Osage ribbon work. Find out all about them at arts.gov

You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed. Stay safe and thanks for listening

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Paul Tetreault: The beauty of this piece is--it runs you through the whole gamut of emotions, and fortunately leaves you at the end with such hope and promise and belief in the human spirit and the human condition, and when you leave Come From Away, I think you leave with this sense of, "Wow, we really all came together as a people, as members of the human race, in those days following 9/11." And you sort of leave with the hope that we would always have that response to that kind of tragedy… And I think sitting at the steps at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial, at sunset, on the eve of 9/11, I think could be pretty profound, and I hope folks will all come down and participate, because this is sort of a gift to the region from Ford's Theatre and the Come From Away company.

Music Credits:

“NY” composed and performed by Kosta T from the cd Soul Sand, used courtesy of the Free Music Archive.

“Hobo’s Flat” written and performed by Terri Lyne Carrington, from the album Real Life Story.

“Monkey Jungle” written by Duke Ellington, performed by Terri Lyne Carrington, from the album, Monkey Jungle: Provocative in Blue.

“Waiting Game,” written by Terri Lyne Carrington, performed by Terri Lyne Carrington and Social Science from the album Waiting Game

"Masqualero"  written by Wayne Shorter; performed by the ACS Trio, recorded live at SFJAZZ, November 2015.

<music playing>

Jo Reed:  Welcome to Art Works, the weekly podcast from the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed.  For the next two weeks, we’re choosing “best of” to repost—and hands down—the number one show to repost was my interview with drummer, educator, producer, and 2021 NEA Jazz Master Terri Lyne Carrington.  Terri Lyne Carrington has been an innovative and dynamic drummer in jazz since the 1980s. She’s known for her versatility as a drummer and the ease with which she can play different genres of music while maintaining a foundation in jazz. We see the same versatility in the many roles she plays throughout music as a composer, a bandleader, a producer and an educator and she’s an advocate for social justice and gender equity. To that end, she’s the founder and artistic director of the Berkeley 2014 Grammy for best jazz instrumental album for Money Jungle, becoming the first woman to win as a leader in this category. In addition to producing and performing on her own albums, she’s also an in-demand drummer playing on more than 100 recordings. Terri Lyne Carrington has accomplished a great deal artistically as well as professionally and given her age she enjoys an extraordinary career that people far older would envy, but she started young, playing her first professional gig when she was just 10 years old with Clark Terry no less. It helps to have grown up in a house filled with music.   

Terri Lyne Carrington: My father played saxophone and drums and my grandfather was a drummer as well; he passed away about six months before I was born so it just kind of runs in the blood.

Jo Reed: Tell me about music in your house. What would your family be listening to? What were you listening to when you were growing up?

Terri Lyne Carrington: My father played music really loud so I was joking around that I came out of the womb with rhythm but he played mostly blues-oriented jazz, people like Jimmy McGriff, Jack McDuff, a lot of organ trios and things that were easy for a young person to grasp.

Jo Reed: The drums weren’t your first instrument even though you started playing them when you were really, really young.

Terri Lyne Carrington: I started playing alto saxophone first, trying to be like my dad I guess. <laughs> Then I switched to the drums when I lost my first set of teeth and started playing drums at seven.

Jo Reed: Do you remember why the drums, Terri Lyne what drew you to them?

Terri Lyne Carrington: I think I started playing the drums because they were there. I was exposed to them at a young age and my father had them set up so I was curious about them and I think that’s really key for any young person to have exposure to things that they may find interesting or that they may be curious about. And both my father and my mother were very supportive.

Jo Reed: How influential was your father not just to your musical style but your approach to music, the way you thought about music?

Terri Lyne Carrington: My father was pretty much my first mentor, he’s probably my biggest influence especially back then, and of course I grew to have my own opinions and my own thoughts about music but even to this day we agree on a lot because he raised me and he was the person that I tried to be like I think in many ways.

Jo Reed: You played with Clark Terry when you were very young; I think you were 10. Can you tell me about that experience and how that happened?

Terri Lyne Carrington: When musicians would come through the Boston area my father would take me to the clubs to see them often on Sunday afternoons for the Sunday jam sessions and because he knew so many people he would tell them that I played the drums and that I could keep time; I could do something that would warrant them to invite me to sit in with them because I think they either didn’t believe him or they just had to hear it for themselves. And so Clark was one of those people and when he heard me he offered me to go to Wichita, Kansas, and that was my first professional gig at 10 years old where I was a guest with his East Coast, West Coast Jazz Giants and that’s the first time I ever got paid and flew anywhere. <laughs>

Jo Reed: Shortly after, I think at the ripe old age of 11, you were given a full scholarship to the Berklee College of Music and I think that needs some backstory. How did this happen?

Terri Lyne Carrington: When I was 11 years old I went to a festival where Oscar Peterson was playing; also on the bill was Count Basie and Ella Fitzgerald. Because I met Ella Fitzgerald before I sat with her on the side of the stage to watch Oscar Peterson play and when he came off the stage she grabbed me by the hand and introduced me to him and said I played drums and that he should hear me. I had played with Clark Terry actually the night before. He couldn’t believe that so he said, “This I have to hear” and we started playing. The president of the college at the time, Lawrence Berk, and his wife, Alma, were there and they hadn’t left the theater yet and they heard me play and offered me a scholarship to the college. So it was actually Oscar Peterson and Ella Fitzgerald that are responsible.

Jo Reed: Not bad musical godparents. Were you going full time? Were you also going to school? How did this work?

Terri Lyne Carrington: I attended Berklee College of Music when I was 11 years old part time until I graduated from high school and then I started going full time, but I went once a week, studying piano and drums and taking some ensembles and also studying African percussion with master percussionist Pablo Landrum and basically I could float around to some different classes and check things out until I got there full time.

Jo Reed: I want to ask you about a couple of your early teachers, mentors, and one of them is Alan Dawson and the other is Jack DeJohnette. I’m curious how they helped you shape your approach to drumming.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Alan Dawson was really important to my development not only because he was my teacher but he was the teacher to my previous teachers and I started with Alan around 14. Somehow between the ages of 14 and 16 I can really see the influence that Alan had on my playing. My technique got much better, my musicality got much better, and I think really he polished my raw abilities better than anybody else.

Jo Reed: What about Jack DeJohnette? I know he was another important mentor to you.

Terri Lyne Carrington: I met Jack DeJohnette when I was about 17. He and his wife, Lydia, were like surrogate parents to me and the coolest thing was they opened me up to so many other styles and genres and just ways of looking at things philosophically, musically, and he never sat down and gave me a drum lesson so to say but he influenced my ideas about music and the direction I wanted to go on instrument and career-wise. So Jack is probably my biggest influence especially as a drummer because the way he played really spoke to me and I had to work hard to find my own voice because I didn’t want to just copy him.

Jo Reed: When did you first move to New York City?

Terri Lyne Carrington: I moved to New York when I was 18.

Jo Reed: What was the music scene like in New York City during that time?

Terri Lyne Carrington: When I first got to New York I of course had friends that I had met at Berklee and people I played with in Boston so of course you gravitate to those people. I met Cassandra Wilson and Steve Coleman and the movement that formed that’s attributed to M-Base those are the people that I started hanging out with and playing some with, but when I would leave town to go work those gigs were with people like Clark Terry, Pharoah Sanders, people that were from a previous generation, so a lot of my work really came from people that were old enough to be my father or my grandfather and it took a while I think for me to start playing more with people of my generation. And then at 21 I auditioned for Wayne Shorter’s group and miraculously got that job because I wasn’t sure how I played at the audition, but Wayne said that he felt safe playing with me and I’m not sure what that means still to this day but whatever it was I was grateful for the opportunity to work with him at such a young age and he helped to really shape my ideas about music as well and about life. It was a breakthrough moment for me getting the job with Wayne Shorter. Then when I moved to L.A. in 1989 I got “The Arsenio Hall Show” and that was another breakthrough in a different way and I could see a different direction for my career.

Jo Reed: Since you mentioned it, let’s talk about “The Arsenio Hall Show.” I was so surprised that you were there for four months; I thought it was much longer. And I would also imagine “The Arsenio Hall Show” would really call upon your musical diversity and really would encourage that kind of versatility.

Terri Lyne Carrington: In 1989, I got the gig to be the house drummer for “The Arsenio Hall Show” and those shows really do take a versatile musician on every instrument and I am-- at heart and my foundation is jazz of course but I always liked blues music and popular music too so my love for those other idioms helped me get that job but I’ve always considered myself a jazz musician that plays these other things sometimes opposed to the other way around. I was only on “The Arsenio Hall Show” for four months but most people think that it was a lot longer than that. People to this day still remember me as the drummer on “The Arsenio Hall Show” and I’m very proud of that. I had to leave the show because I had an album out and I had to make a choice between supporting the album, which was nominated for a Grammy, or staying on the show and I was led to believe I could do both but it didn’t work out that way but I do believe that everything works out the way it’s supposed to.

Jo Reed: Let’s talk about that album, “Real Life Story,” your first album as a leader released in 1989. You were really young. Can you tell me about that experience?

Terri Lyne Carrington: I had a lot of amazing artists on that album, Carlos Santana, Grover Washington Jr., John Scofield, Patrice Rushen, Greg Osby, Dianne Reeves, Keith Jones, Don Alias, Hiram Bullock, but it was more in the style of the music I was playing at the time with David Sanborn and Wayne Shorter, which was electronic, so it was nominated in the contemporary jazz category.

<music playing>

Jo Reed: It was a long time then before you released your second album.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Done some homework. <laughs> That’s good. <laughs> Yeah, almost 20 years.

Jo Reed: It was a really long time and in fact you went to Europe to bring out your second album. You went to ACT Music in 2002. It was 2006 before you got a U.S. label. That’s a long time between albums as a leader. I wonder if it wasn’t because of your versatility that there was this gap in you bringing out records as a leader because record companies couldn’t put you in this little column; you couldn’t be in this particular slot of a record label.

Terri Lyne Carrington: I think my versatility did not work in my favor as an artist though it seemed to work in my favor as a drummer, and a phrase that kept coming back is, “She’s all over the place” and I kept trying to find a focus or a center to make records because it seemed like you need to be in a nice, neat box for labels and for marketing and for the system that puts out music, but gradually independent music became more and more necessary as streaming happened and labels changed and people were able to control their own destiny a lot better. So I decided to make an album, it was called “Jazz is a Spirit,” and I decided to use my frequent-flyer miles and pay for the album myself and it ended up being released on ACT Music, a European label, but it was at least my return to being an artist or a leader. And the important lesson for me there is that once I invested in myself my career took off again as an artist-- as a solo artist.

Jo Reed: I wonder, Terri Lyne, if you had women who mentored you. We’ve mentioned Jack DeJohnette, certainly Wayne Shorter, but were there also women who were helping to guide you?

Terri Lyne Carrington: There were certainly women that I talked to and got advice from, Bernice Johnson Reagon from Sweet Honey in the Rock, Angela Davis and of course people that I worked with like Dianne Reeves, Cassandra Wilson, Dee Dee Bridgewater, but there were not very many women instrumentalists that were able to serve as a mentor because there just weren’t that many there. There were many women that I played with and talked to and developed with like Geri Allen and Ingrid Jensen and Renee Rosnes but they were more peers; there weren’t so many women from another generation that could show us the ropes. So my mentors were mostly men and they understood gender equity back before people were even talking about it. Wayne Shorter always had a lot of women, Clark Terry too. I think that it’s important to give credit to the older-generation musicians that grew up and came through the music in a certain way and recognized that it needed to be different so they took it upon themselves to really foster talent in young women.

Jo Reed: I just don’t think having women who were peers to be there with you can be overstated.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Oh, absolutely not. <laughs> One of the problems with gender equity is that women end up playing together and helping and encouraging one another because they don’t usually have apprentice relationships, they don’t have mentoring from people that have made it, and so they end up playing together, which creates these silos so to say and then you’re pigeonholed as a woman musician.

Jo Reed: You had said that you had resisted playing with women-only band for a really long time because you didn’t want to be put in a box but then you created “The Mosaic Project,” which was all women.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Right.

Jo Reed: You brought in a lot of women musicians who you had played with in the past in various projects and you created one big project, an amazingly successful, wonderful album. What’s the backstory there? What made you decide to turn that corner?

Terri Lyne Carrington: A lot of people had asked me to do all-female projects or play all-female festivals and I shied away from that because I didn’t want to be stereotyped or pigeonholed, but at a certain point I realized I had been playing with a lot of great women instrumentalists and of course vocalists too and I decided to celebrate that on an album called “The Mosaic Project” and I did it on my own terms and when I was ready and I think that’s the key to the success of the project. I wasn’t doing it because I wanted attention or because I wanted to bring women’s issues to the forefront necessarily; I just wanted to celebrate these amazing women that I had been working with all along.

Jo Reed: I’m really curious, and this is no dig on any male musician at all that you’ve played with, but what shifted when you were in the studio with all women or when you were on the stage and it was all women?

Terri Lyne Carrington: It took me a long time to recognize any kind of difference playing with all women opposed to playing with all men and I think that’s because I’m very comfortable playing with all men; it felt very natural to me. I was always about just however the music sounds and feels and not thinking about gender at all, and then when I was in this trio with Geri Allen and Esperanza Spalding they started talking about their guard being down and feeling something different and that made me look at that and acknowledge it in my own way too. I think for me it was probably not feeling like I had to prove anything and that’s the biggest difference because musically I don’t really hear gender, I don’t hear a difference, but it’s all the other things that you feel when you’re on stage, when you’re off stage, when you’re at dinners, all the things that you feel that create trust with people and create an environment that you can really be your authentic self.

Jo Reed: You mentioned Geri Allen and Esperanza Spalding and I’d love to have you talk about playing with both of them.

Terri Lyne Carrington: When I first came to Berklee to teach in 2005 I was introduced to Esperanza and there was something about playing with her that felt like some kind of mystic, cosmic circle had been completed and I think it’s that bass-drum connection that I hadn’t felt with another woman before on the bass. And I did a gig in Israel where I invited Esperanza and Geri and Tineke Postma to play and there was something magical about that union and that became the seed for “The Mosaic Project,” but after we made that record Geri and Esperanza and I formed a trio that was called ACS, Allen, Carrington and Spalding Trio, and I think just that like-mindedness that I have with both of them made it very easy to play and easy to find those zones that you want to find when you’re playing.

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Terri Lyne Carrington: With Geri being from an older generation than Esperanza, there were certain rhythmic phrases and things in the vocabulary that she used that was very natural to me so we were always connected rhythmically and with Esperanza we were connected rhythmically too; it’s just different because the way the bass breaks up the time with the drummer you have to sort of be like-minded with what you think is hip or not. And we never had to have conversations about it like I have had to have with other bass players. <laughs> We just liked all the same things and that made it easy to play with both of them.

Jo Reed: “The Mosaic Project” won the Grammy Award in 2012 for best vocal album. Congratulations.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Thank you.

Jo Reed: And you followed “The Mosaic Project” with “Money Jungle: Provocative in Blue,” which was this radical rendition of the ’63 recording by Duke Ellington and Max Roach and Charles Mingus. You know what this question is going to be. What compelled you to do that?

Terri Lyne Carrington: I’m so happy to hear you say “radical”; that’s a big compliment <laughs> because those are radical musicians. <laughs> I think that if you’re going to cover an album you have to do it differently so when I did “Money Jungle: Provocative in Blue” I knew that I couldn’t do anything that sounded really like the original album and those are three very strong personalities, very radical musicians so I wanted to just really bring my own spin to that music. And I heard a lot of interviews and read interviews of Duke Ellington’s where he was really about the future and not really hanging onto the things of the past like most jazz musicians, and in fact he said that his music was freedom of expression and that he had stopped using the word “jazz” so when I heard that I felt like he wouldn’t be offended by the arrangements I did on his songs.

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Terri Lyne Carrington: The casting for that album had to be very special too because it had to be people that understood Duke Ellington and Charles Mingus but also understood jazz of the time and of the future and Gerald Clayton was the perfect pianist for that as well as Christian McBride on bass.

Jo Reed: In general, I’m curious how you approach things in the studio. When you’re in the studio and you’re going to record do you rehearse a lot? Are there a lot of takes? Just tell me how you typically approach recording.

Terri Lyne Carrington: For “Money Jungle” I didn’t have a whole lot of time to do the basic tracking, two days, and I sent all the music to Christian and Gerald early and they both really practiced it and came to the studio totally prepared, which was great because that’s the last thing you want to happen is to get there when you only have two days and people hadn’t looked at the music, which does happen, so for me the easiest way to explain to them what I’m hearing is to demo everything as thoroughly as possible. So I played all the arrangements, sequenced them all, and took some really bad keyboard solos to show where the solos would go, some really bad bass solos on maybe, and I think that doing that really at least helps the musicians see my vision and then take it from there, and of course they can improve upon it but I do think it’s good to show them as much information as possible from the beginning.

Jo Reed: “Money Jungle” won the 2014 Grammy for best jazz instrumental album and you were the first woman to receive an award for this and I’m sure you are tired of talking about it but no other woman has won since you won in 2014. Honestly, I had no idea you were the first and only woman to win this. Were you aware of that when you were nominated that no other woman had won before?

Terri Lyne Carrington: I was aware of it when I was nominated because I looked it up. I was the first woman to win a Grammy in the jazz instrumental category and I was also the first woman to be nominated as a leader and it was kind of bittersweet because as happy as I was to win I also realized that there was a lot of work to be done in this area so these victories really inspire me to work harder for gender equity.

Jo Reed: I think because jazz is such an expression of freedom it can be difficult to fully realize it and critique it as part of the same system. It’s part of the patriarchal system that we’re all in. It doesn’t exist outside of it anymore than anything else does.

Terri Lyne Carrington: The idea is-- yeah-- freedom is something as far as I knew that was supposed to be for everybody. We can’t continue to have conversations around one set of oppressions and not include the others so we can’t continue to speak about race without speaking about gender and vice versa or we’re still supporting the same patriarchal structure which is the root cause of all of it, and it doesn’t make sense to talk about any of those without talking about environmental justice or animal justice because without a planet none of these other things will matter anyway. So I think that we have to all become more inclusive with our justice consciousness and our justice struggles because they’re really all connected and that’s what I’ve grown to understand over the last several years.

Jo Reed: You’re responding not just artistically to inequities; you’re also responding institutionally. You teach at the Berklee College of Music and you’re the founder and artistic director of Berklee’s Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice. Can you tell me what your hope is for this institute and for the students who go through it?

Terri Lyne Carrington: A couple years ago I founded the Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice and so many stories that I had heard from young women was that they didn’t feel comfortable in their ensembles, they didn’t feel comfortable trying things because they felt ridiculed or criticized by either their teacher especially in high school or their peers so I felt like that was the reason to start the institute so that there was a place where they didn’t have to feel those things. I do think we’re moving in the right direction. I do think recent times have made people even more conscious and more aware of issues of inequity with race and gender. Over the last five years or so, I’ve really seen more change and more hope for a better teacher in regard to gender equity. I’ve seen it not just at Berklee but also at other institutions that I’ve visited and it seems that people have finally gotten the message that we need to make these kinds of shifts in order for the music to fully develop. There are more women students, there are more women teachers, and there are more male students and male teachers that are concerned with this issue and that’s the most important thing to me because nothing will really change if women are the ones advocating for women and it really needs to be across the board; we all have to advocate for each other.

Jo Reed: That leads me right into your recent album with Social Science, which is “Waiting Game.” That was nominated for a Grammy Award and “Waiting Game” explicitly deals with themes of social justice. It is an extraordinary synergy of musical language. I want to hear the backstory of “Waiting Game” and your work with Social Science with Matthew Stevenson and Aaron Parks.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Both Matthew Stevens and Aaron Parks would tour with me in different projects and I started to really enjoy the conversations that we got into involving issues and problems that we feel affect us as just human beings in the world but also as Americans so we got together and started writing some music and we got a gig; then we had to round off the band and we pulled in Morgan Guerin and then Debo Ray and then Kassa Overall and once the band was formed after about two years we went in the studio and started cutting the album, which took almost another two years. So it’s been a long process but I’m very pleased with the results because I think we were thoughtful with how we wanted to present this music. Most of the writing is between Aaron and Matthew and myself and we have a lot of guest artists as well that contributed spoken word and rap. The idea was for it to be a multigenerational band, a multiethnic band, people from different walks of life coming together, different cultural experiences coming together in unity about these causes and I think we’ve seen this past year that that’s really what it takes for a change to happen.

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Jo Reed: The composition of “Waiting Game” is so interesting because the first and second half are very different. The first half of the album is very focused, very produced, very poignant in its lyrical content about injustice, and then the second half Esperanza Spalding joins in and it’s extended improvised music and Aaron Park said, which I really loved, that he thought the improvised music demonstrates the democracy in action that people are singing about and wanting and demanding in the first part of the album.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Yes, he did say that. He said it great.

Jo Reed: But when, how, why did you get the idea of doing an album that’s a combination of these two parts?

Terri Lyne Carrington: For me, it’s just ideas come. I’m grateful when they come, they just come, and there’s a spark and that’s the creative spark I think that happens. We came into the studio and we were cutting the other tracks and it just so happened that Esperanza was here because of a snowstorm and she was staying at my house and she wasn’t even supposed to be here and she just came to hang out for the day, and I said, “Let’s just go improvise for an hour without stopping, turn off the lights and not do a second take,” and that’s what happened. We only got to about 42 minutes because nobody was looking at a watch but that ended up being enough time.

Jo Reed: That was one take.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Oh, yeah.

Jo Reed: Holy moly. I was going to ask you that. That’s amazing. What does instrumental music allow you to do that vocal music doesn’t and conversely what do the vocals give you perhaps more explicitly than the instrumental part?

Terri Lyne Carrington: That’s a great question. In general, I think instrumental music challenges your imagination. You can get hints about a theme and it can feel explicit in some instrumental music and in others you have no idea what the composer is trying to say, but the biggest and the most important thing is that it challenges your imagination and I think as artists that’s our job to help you see a different future, to imagine something that’s not there in your memory or ideas. With vocal music, it’s more a storytelling I think that’s inviting you into a scene that the artist wants to share with you; because of the lyrics I mean the story is obvious and it’s right there. And I love both equally.

Jo Reed: You’ve also produced albums and I’m thinking most specifically about Dianne Reeves’ “Beautiful Life,” which won a Grammy. I’m curious how you approach producing. It’s a very different hat to wear.

Terri Lyne Carrington: I think drummers make natural producers. So many of the drummers I know are used to being the leader-- or the de facto leader of a band because we control so many things, the dynamics, the tempo, the forward motion, if the piece feels relaxed or if it feels intense. There’s so many things that we’re controlling so I think that is a good foundation for producing music. It’s just a place that I love to be, creating something from nothing, and so different from live performance; if I were to compare it to filmmaking then I feel like a director.      

Jo Reed: What does being named a 2021 NEA Jazz Master mean to you?

Terri Lyne Carrington: I was quite surprised and shocked to get that call to let me know that I was an NEA Jazz Master this year and at first I think I thought am I too young for this but when I looked at my career of over 40 years I felt like I can’t help it that I started early, and I had to just feel good about it myself and I felt grateful that the NEA and the committee felt me worthy and the biggest thing I feel is it furthering my dedication to keep doing the work that I’m doing because you can’t be an NEA Jazz Master and slack off. <laughs> It makes me work harder and not less.

Jo Reed: Even though you are young you think a lot about your legacy.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Yeah.

Jo Reed: I’d like to know at this moment in time what you would like your legacy to be.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Everything that we do is contributing one way or another to a legacy. I think creating value with all that we do is what’s important and when I realized that my work started changing and I decided not to take gigs for financial reasons or thinking just about myself. When I needed to look at a bigger picture as a decision for the work that I took I realized that everything changed and the universe was supporting my desire to create value in the world, to be mission oriented, to do my part in having a society that I want to live in, to be connected to humanity in a way that makes a difference. So when I think about legacy I’m thinking really about the present moment because that’s all we have anyway and I need to do everything I can in the present moment that will eventually make a worthy legacy.

Jo Reed: I think that’s a great place to leave it, Terri Lyne. Thank you, and again many congratulations on being named a 2021 NEA Jazz Master.

Terri Lyne Carrington: Thank you. This has been great. Thanks for doing so much homework.

Jo Reed: It was my pleasure truly. Thank you. 

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Jo Reed: That was 2021 NEA Jazz Master drummer, producer and educator Terri Lyne Carrington. The 2022 class of Jazz Masters has been announced: they are Stanley Clarke, Billy Hart, Cassandra Wilson, and Donald Harrison, Jr. We’ll be celebrating them in a concert on Thursday, March 31, 2022, held in collaboration with and produced by SFJAZZ. It will be free and open to the public and streamed live—so keep checking arts.gov for details. You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed. Stay safe and thanks for listening.

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