Jeff Malmberg: I think it's kind of a movie about belief, belief in art, belief in the power of art to transform your life, you know? And those are usually kind of empty words that nobody actually thinks can be true, but here's a place that has been doing it and centering art in their lives for 50 years.

Jo Reed: That is Jeff Malmberg. He and Chris Shellen are the directors of the documentary Spettacolo, and this is Art Works, the weekly podcast produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed.

Every year, in the Tuscan hills, the resident of the small village of Monticchiello, come together to write and perform an original play about issues concerning their own lives. This tradition has been going on for fifty years—and the issues they’ve covered are like a lesson in the social history lesson of the area. They’ve grappled with the Nazi occupation, the changes in agricultural production, the growing tourism in the area, the banking crisis, the women’s movement, the rise of technology, the towns aging population and so on and so on. The villagers gather in the winter, settle on a topic, and slowly, slowly, a play emerges which is mounted in August. During that gustation period, there are discussions, rehearsals, sets are built, costumes created, and arguments had, because just as important as the play—maybe even more so-- is this process of these neighbors coming together regularly and over time to discuss, challenge, and wrestle with a central issue in their lives through creative practice. And in the hands of Filmmakers Chris Shellen and Jeff Malmberg, this process is both magical and earned. Their film Spettacolo is a window into this world which Shellen and Malmberg actually discovered by happenstance. As Chris shellen explains, they had just finished their first film Marwencol and were on their honeymoon when they wandered into Monticchiello and met the Artistic Director of the theater, Andrea Cresti.

Chris Shellen: We stepped into this town, and it just was immediately different from every other town we had seen in Tuscany. It didn't feel touristy. You know, we didn't see the lines of tourists. It seemed like a, quote, “real town,” and there was only one open door in town, and it was the door to this artist's studio, and it just looked like a medieval artist's studio. And there was a man inside with this big shock of silver hair, and he was just fascinating looking, and both Jeff and I immediately thought, "Oh, where's our camera? We wish we could film him. Who is he?" And he was an artist, Andrea Cresti, and we were curious about him, and we happened to read this flyer that talked about this theater that this town put on, and it turned out that he was the Artistic Director, and we just couldn't stop thinking about it.

Jo Reed: Let’s talk a little bit about Monticchiello today. There is such a timelessness about this place. Of course it’s changed over time, and not.

Jeff Malmberg: Right.

Jo Reed: And you see more tourists coming in and people moving away. Tell me about Monticchiello?

Jeff Malmberg: They're dealing with how to maintain a life in a Tuscan hill town. Their theater, I think, has really been a safety device to this kind of looming kind of tourist threat. They're really the only hill town that we ever saw in that area of Tuscany that had actual people living there, and I think it was really a function of that theater kind of binding them together.

Jo Reed: And yet, as you point out in the film, the town’s population is aging, therefore decreasing. It has one-hundred and thirty-six people?

Jeff Malmberg: Yup.

Chris Shellen: Mm- Hmm

Jeff Malmberg: Twenty years ago, they had a great play in 1999, remember, Chris, called Quota 300? Which was about this strange vision of what would happen to them if they went below 300 people. So now they're at 136 people. You know you can kind of chart that out and start to wonder how does this tradition continue.

Chris Shellen: Yeah, they lost their bus line that led straight to town, and a lot of the services have been cut. So they've been trying to figure out how to keep the town going just using their own resources.

Jo Reed: Were you able to discover how this tradition began?

Chris Shellen: We were. You talked about how Tuscany looks very much the same as it did years and years ago, and that is true because before the 1950s it was very much like a medieval farming culture. They still used oxen to plow the fields. They would sleep down with the animals for warmth. They used wooden tools. It was a medieval futile culture. And then in the 1950s, 1960s, that culture started to go away, the tenant farming culture, and all of a sudden, these farmers had started to move away, and Tuscany started to become de-populated. And the people of Monte Carlo were watching all of their neighbors just disappear, and they were watching foreigners and outsiders come in and open up shops and start to change the area. And they came up with the theater as almost a sort of form of protest, like a way to find their voice, because they were this tiny, tiny town and nobody cared about them. So they said, "You know, we need people to pay attention to us. What can we do?" And they came up with this idea for the theater.

Jo Reed: Well how did you begin the process of making this documentary? How did you start?

Jeff Malmberg: So, kind of our first move was to try and move from being these tourists to being on the inside. I think the idea of Tuscany in America is so loaded with wine and cheese and sunsets and hay bales. So, our first kind of directorial decision really was to decide to live there for six months and how can we both understand their point of view on this land that has changed over time but also portray it back for an audience to experience, as well. And that was actually one of the really fun things about being there for that amount of time and one of the great things you can do in documentary in terms of just throwing time at a problem and kind of tracking something longitudinally. I mean in that six months, we had the similar experience that I think you get to have in the film, which is, yes, it's beautiful, but you start to see these cracks, and you start to realize that it's more a sunset story than it is a sunrise story. And fifty years on, what does a tradition look like and how does it need to be propped up, and where is it taking on water. And that really was the story of living there for that amount of time was getting to kind of explore some of those things.

Jo Reed: Now, let's talk about you becoming more of an insider in that town. First of all, do you speak Italian?

Chris Shellen: We do now.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Jo Reed: So you didn't then?

Chris Shellen: Well, we didn't, and that is a tribute to the people in that town, their great sense of humor and sense of curiosity and adventure that they would allow us...

Jeff Malmberg: And trust.

Chris Shellen: ... then trust to allow two Americans who barely spoke Italian at all to follow them around for six months.

Jeff Malmberg: Its full immersion, I mean… There was that magical day, do you remember, Chris? I think it was about two or three months in where we did an interview, and it was like was that Interview in English?

Chris Shellen: Immersion is the best way to learn a language.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Jo Reed: Was Andrea Cresti the Artistic Director you’re in into the town?

Jeff Malmberg: Absolutely. I mean I think he really-- bless him for his artistic sense. I always thought of him as sort of the protector of small things, and I think he took us on as kind of two small things that were well-meaning and had an artistic sense about themselves, as well, and that he trusted. And I think it was really his trust that allowed the town to follow because, think about it, I mean two Americans are going to come to your town and tell your story and live here for six months. That's kind of a big ask, and I think they all looked to Andrea as, "How do you feel about this?" One thing we actually did, as well, was we translated our last film, Marwencol, into Italian and showed them that, and I think that was really the point where they got what we were trying to do. I remember somebody said, "Oh, you're trying to tell a story," and they relaxed at that point and let us kind of like go down that path with them. But, yeah, it was very much Andrea believing it in the beginning. Chris, you remember that day that we had that first meeting with the townsfolk and we were trying to explain in our kind of pigeon Italian what we wanted to accomplish, and when I said, "We feel like your life has real value for the world and we want to show the world what you do, and we think it's important," everybody laughed except, Andrea in the back. And so, to some degree, I have always felt like the making of this film has been a year's long process of trying to show those people who laughed what we were talking about, that their lives have value, that the way they've chosen to spend their lives has had value. And that was always the goal.

Jo Reed: Let’s talk about the process of writing the play. After the town comes together to decide on an issue, Andrea begins to write the play, but it’s with ongoing input from the town and the towns approval.

Chris Shellen: And they have a very particular way of looking at it. All the scripts that are produced, they say that they are written by the people of Monticchiello, but Andrea Cresti listens to the town. And you see it in this first meeting scene in the film, where he is really listening carefully to everything that the townspeople are saying, and he starts to pull out phrases and ideas and themes, and then he pulls them together into a script that then the town debates very, very heatedly.

Jo Reed: There’s the moment in the film when Andrea gives what he considers to be the thumb nail sketch of where he’s going with the play and there’s this moment of silence and suddenly everybody’s talking at once.

<Laughs>

Chris Shellen: And that’s what it’s like.

Jeff Malmberg: And I remember working on the film and thinking, okay, when we show them the rough cut, we need to pull out the lights and if they all say, "Oh, that was very nice. Thank you," we haven't done our job correctly. But if we get that rumble of people and then kind of arguing with one another passionately, we've done our job. And you know I’m sure Andrea feels the same way. He wants that input. He doesn't want the sort of, "Okay, sounds good, Andrea. Thanks for everything." You know he wants the collaboration. He wants people to show up.

Chris Shellen: Yeah, the debate, the discussion, that's what they live for.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Chris Shellen: And we did get that with the film...

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Chris Shellen: ... over the course of two nights. When we showed the film to them, they did erupt in that sort of--.

Jeff Malmberg: That's right. And then they watched it again and gave us more notes. I forgot about that.

Chris Shellen: Yeah, and they were great notes.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, really good note giving, which you don't expect normally with subjects, but of course, these subjects have been analyzing their lives on stage for fifty years.

Chris Shellen: Dramatically.

Jeff Malmberg: Some really good notes.

Jo Reed: And were you able to incorporate some of them into the film?

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, some of them, yeah. They had some thoughts about how they came to this process in this tradition that really helped us understand that we needed to hit certain things a little bit harder, and where all this was coming from.

Jo Reed: And it’s also interesting because I think certainly in the west we have a vision of the lone artist struggling and this centers on collaborative project and a collaborative process and as it becomes clear if somebody is not there it matters deeply.

Jeff Malmberg: Completely.

Chris Shellen: Yeah, and that goes for their community too. It was really remarkable to watch them. First of all, when we walked into the town, Andrea said to us, "I just want to make one thing clear. This is about all of us. This theater is all of us in the entire town. It's not just about me." But, of course, he just was-- he was so giving of himself that-- and it went so deep that he just naturally became the main protagonist of the film, and I think he was okay with that, understanding that he was sort of the lens for how people were seeing the town around him.

Jeff Malmberg: I think one of the things I learned making this and watching them is that sometimes it's just about showing up.

Chris Shellen: That’s it.

Jeff Malmberg: We also have this thing where it's like we kind of montage out the creative process to be this like late night kind of order a pizza and we'll figure it out, and there's victory at the end, and it's harder than that, you know? I remember there was a note card I had which was like, "Creativity, the joy of it, the pain in the ass of it," excuse me. You know and I think that as a community, you have to show up. So, that was just one thing that really resonated with me over the course of making the film.

Chris Shellen: That was exactly what was in my head, too. Thank you. You were reading my mind that it was about this community, not just the theater, not just about showing up for the play, but the fact that they come out every single night. They don't all necessarily like each other. They are a very charming town, but they have conflict, and some of them hate each other, and they'll have in-fights, and sometimes they don't want to talk about their problems. Sometimes they'd just rather stay home and watch TV or go to the beach or something, but they do show up. And because they do, it's frustrating, but they talk and they have a connection and a unity that I haven't seen in many other towns. It's such a rare unity that they have, and it's because they do the work. And community's hard. It's not an easy thing. And theater is hard. It's not an easy thing.

Jo Reed: I was just going to say as is theater, and I think there's the collaborative nature that you obviously focus on, but then another note I had was, boy, do you show the difficulty of sustained effort.

<laughs>

Jo Reed: There's the creative spark, and we all love that, but then you have to do something with that.

Jeff Malmberg: Right.

Jo Reed: And that, you just need to keep pushing that rock up the hill.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, no, exactly right, and it's a great reminder. I mean it was so interesting on a meta level, too. Every single one of those scenes we would feel when we were making the film and we would feel when we were writing grant applications and we would feel when we were doing our little artistic effort that we had to believe in despite all evidence or lack of any good evidence. Every time that they're trying to rally themselves, I took great comfort, and it was food for me to like continue down the road because I felt like he was speaking-- Andrea was speaking to me. What a great opportunity to watch somebody who has done this 50 years. I mean that's just incredible. I don't know. There's just something about Andrea that I find deeply inspiring, and he really, I think, is the real deal. He's a true artist, and to be able to sit next to somebody like that, and he was so giving. He was really the only one who had no reservations whatsoever with anything we did.

Jo Reed: Yeah, I love at the end when he's talking to the players, the villagers, his neighbors, and he says, "What matters is that we did this thing together." Oh, it brought a tear to my eye. It really did.

Chris Shellen: Oh, good.

Jeff Malmberg: Thank you. I'm trying not to--.

Chris Shellen: Tear up ourselves.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, I hear you. And I mean I'm feeling that scene very much right now. I don't know about you, Chris, but as the movie comes out, it's not about how many people show up. It's about the fact that you did it... You know, and it’s very easy to forget that.

Jo Reed: The community asks a lot of itself in doing this every year, and...

Chris Shellen: Absolutely.

Jo Reed: ... when do they rehearse? How does this work? Some of them work...

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Chris Shellen: Yes.

Jo Reed: ... I mean, even though they're aging. So when does rehearsals typically begin?

Chris Shellen: Such a great question.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Chris Shellen: It took us so long to find this answer.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah. We're notoriously early people, or at least I am. So I don't know if I learned that lesson of the Italian time versus American time, but--.

Chris Shellen: The Italian calendar which kind of starts when it's going to start.

Jeff Malmberg: Right. It supposedly would start at 9:30 every night and go till midnight. It usually didn't really get rolling till about 10, and we would shoot -- we pretty much shot every other rehearsal, I think, because we'd be shooting other things. And we consciously had those breaks. They don't have those breaks. They would be there every night at 9:30 if they were in a good mood, if they were in a bad mood, if they had a horrible day or not going through this process together. So it is remarkable that they would do that. Now, when they started that, there was no television. It really was their way of entertaining themselves. And as you see in the film, there are other options now, so of course, that's one of the things that they're kind of finding.

Chris Shellen: And it's not just that they do it at 9:30 at night and it lasts until all hours. They have their first meetings in January and then they'll continue to have these community meetings where they sort of drill into the script and they figure it out. And then I think rehearsals start around …

Jeff Malmberg: End of May, yeah.

Chris Shellen: Yeah, around May. There's no sort of set date, but right around spring. And then they start in the small theater. Then they get on to the big stage, and it's pretty much every night from May until they finish the play in August.

Jo Reed: Now let me ask you, who comes to see the play and how long does the play run? Is it a one night only thing?

Chris Shellen: When it first started, it was like a one-night-only thing, and then it became more popular, so they extended it to like a week, and at this point, it's about three weeks. It runs from about the middle of July to like the middle of August about, and they only have Monday nights off. They play it every other night, every other night. And it's a very fluid performance because these are real people, so sometimes the lines change, and they sort of take it in a different direction. So the play at the very beginning can sometimes be a little different than the play at the end, which is interesting to watch.

Jo Reed: And who’s the audience for the play?

Chris Shellen: So it's mainly Italians, and a lot of people in the area who sort of know about it, a lot of people, the sort of more intellectual crowds in Italy who are sort of curious about the play.

Jeff Malmberg: I mean if you asked them, I think they'd say primarily themselves. If you see it a little bit in some of the rehearsals. You know, if you're not in the play, you're commenting on how you don't think the play is correct.

<laughter>

Jeff Malmberg: So, it's your responsibility to at least see it, you know? I mean it's the thing that we're going to be talking about all year.

Jo Reed: Oh, no, of course, yeah.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, totally.

Jo Reed: I’m curious about the filming of this, because the town’s people are used to examining their own lives. So, was filming this a little less challenging because of that or was it a little more challenging because their also used to playing to an audience?

Jeff Malmberg: Great question. I mean I think more challenging because fifty years later. They had gotten so used to what they did that I think they had kind of taken it for granted. They couldn't remember the place that we had read about and were so fascinated by. To them, it was all one big play, like we came to realize after trying to interview them about details that in their mind, it had been a continual play for the last fifty years, and it was just something that their grandparents did and their parents did and they were expected to do. And, you know, some people, I think, really-- they never saw the beauty that an outsider would see in it anymore. We're always looking for opportunities for the subjects to get something out of this experience. You know they're sitting there for so long, and you're taking their portrait, and they're so patient. And for them, I think one of the big takeaways was going back to Italy after a couple years and starting to show them versions of the film and hearing them speak to each other and discuss what's wrong with their theater and how they can move forward and why do you leave rehearsals and why are you upset and why are the kids not involved. So you know I think it was a tradition that was beautiful and singular and amazing but at the same time had kind of fallen into a case where it was not necessarily disrepair but it was underappreciated. Would you agree with that, Chris?

Chris Shellen: Yes, I think they had sort of fallen into almost like an autopilot on it, and that was one of the big challenges that we needed to get past was just this idea that they've done it for long enough and they've spoken about it with outsiders, you know, news crews that would come in for a day and interview them. They'd spoken about it on a superficial level for so long that that was kind of what they knew. They knew the patter. They knew sort of the broad strokes of what they were doing, and they were on this kind of autopilot, and that was why we stayed there for six months because we really felt like we needed to break through that and get to the heart of what was happening, and it was a big revelation for them. It was exciting to see them watch the film. And even just recently, we had our Italian premiere at Biografilm in Bologna, and one of the young men who used to be a part of the theater but no longer is, he came to see it, and we were really curious to hear what he thought about it. And he came out of it, and he said, "You know, I think that film was very true, and I realize now why the theater is important, and I understand it now."

Jeff Malmberg: Yes, his name was Nicolo who had been involved in the theater, and a few years before Nicolo had kind of gone away from the theater. I remember talking to Andrea the next morning, and all we talked about was what Nicolo thought about the film, which, in my mind, is such a wonderful conversation that I remembered because this is not somebody who's even involved in the theater, but Andrea and I both agreed that it was really important what he felt about the movie and what he felt about the movie was saying. So it was always our intention on some level to make something that they could could discuss with, just like their plays, opening up the process to them, seeing rough cuts, and getting input and things like that and collaborating with them. So even somebody who has dismissed the theater five years ago should have just as much their point of view on the film as somebody who's deeply involved like Andrea.

Jo Reed: Well, Andrea certainly occupies a-- and rightfully so-- prominent, central position in the film, but Chiara oh, my god, she was so charming, and we should explain who she is, please.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm so glad to hear that. Chiara is a young kind of assistant director to Andrea and I think as we filmed and then as we started showing some people is really this ray of light, of hope for what the theater could be. We're always hanging out with Chiara when we're there …

Chris Shellen: She's wonderful, and she's sort of, I think, underappreciated, even by herself...

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Chris Shellen: ... and I remember Andrea said-- after he saw the film, he said, "I was really pleased about the prominent position you gave to Chiara in the film," because even while we were filming it, we didn't appreciate how central she was...

Jeff Malmberg: Totally.

Chris Shellen: She is like the heart of that place, and she's got so much energy.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, and that's the great thing, as you know, about documentaries, that it tells you, you know? I mean you always try and impose your idea on it, but that's not always correct. You hope it's not correct. You hope it's something better, you know?

Jo Reed: Yeah, I mean she's-- it's so interesting because she's young. She has to be in her twenties.

Chris Shellen: She is, yeah.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Jo Reed: And she’s fine being behind the scenes. She's not on stage, but, boy, she's the organizational genius of—

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, yeah, no, she's always-- I remember telling her-- when we first started cutting and we saw her again, I said, "You know what's interesting, Chiara, you're always helping people," and she just smiled. And, yeah, I mean she's the glue. You need those people. It's like somebody says in the film, they're community, and they're a community of believers, and she is a believer in the same way that Andrea is a believer. And I think it’s kind of a movie about that, about belief. Belief in art to transform your life, you know, and those are usually kind of empty words that nobody actually thinks can be true, but here’s a place that has been doing it and centering art in their lives for fifty years. And what do they look like, how do they relate to one another?

Jo Reed: How many hours of film did you shoot?

Jeff Malmberg: I would say we were there for six months and we pretty much shot every day. I mean the great thing was you would go down for coffee every morning with your camera and just see where the day took you. I think I clocked it at about four hundred hours for a ninety-minute film, so a lot of stuff and a lot of Italian verite, which, as you've seen, hopefully, in the film, they tend to talk over each other and talk very quickly.

Jo Reed: Oh, which I love.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, it's like music, right? But when you're translating that and trying to get to the root of it...

Jo Reed: That was my question. That was exactly where I was going because then you have to go into the editing room and how? And that must've really been a bear.

Jeff Malmberg: We had the same woman who had trained us in learning Italian before we left, we turned into our kind of translator story analyst, you know, and so she would sit in the back with us, by the back of our house with us for years and just go through conversations. And knowing Italian enough, we sort of knew the eighty percent of it, the seventy, eighty percent of it, but we didn't know the fine details of those arguments.

Chris Shellen: Yeah, we knew nuance in terms of which words we could cut on where it wouldn't seem strange.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, exactly. Verite is entirely boring until it's perfect. You're really just waiting with that line in the water until you feel something, and then you can pull out a fish magically.

Jo Reed: I don’t know if you had spoken to Andrea and the other town’s people about this but, because they are aging. What are their thoughts about this tradition moving forward?

Chris Shellen: Andrea himself has a really beautiful life view. It's very pragmatic and he says it in the movie to the idea of at some point traditions will end and it's important that the tradition ends before it just descends into costume drama. It needs to have meaning if it's going to continue at all. He very much would like that tradition to continue but only if it continues to have meaning for the town. I think the townspeople themselves have started to appreciate that meaning a little bit more, hopefully in part because of the film, and even some of the young people like Chiara they have stepped up to try and spread the word and get more young people involved and especially involved in the scripting process. So, it seems like there is some hope there.

Jeff Malmberg: The fact that they moved beyond their 50th year this year, that they committed to doing a fifty first, I think, was a big deal. There's still that looming question of Andrea, and him being the center of that wheel and being the one that really keeps it all together--.

Jo Reed: Right, and he's seventy six?

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, and he's always the last one putting the stage away and climbing the scaffolding, but you know, that can't go on forever. This is a chance for a rebirth and a chance for something new and something different, and I think Andrea would be the first person to support that.

Jo Reed: I'm curious-- because you're married and you're working together …

<laughter>

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, right. A strange choice to choose a film about collaboration when you want to collaborate with your spouse, right?

Jo Reed: Exactly. So how did that work out for you?

<laughter>

Jeff Malmberg: Well, we're here. We showed up. I'd like to think we were taught by that town and Italian culture and that theater better ways to collaborate. And after having done the first film, where I was the director and she was the producer. I always thought of it as a duet, like what would it sound like if the two of us were doing this together, you know, and it had two voices. And, again, you kind of in your mind take that to be this all-positive thing and it's, you know, frankly not.

Chris Shellen: It's a messy process.

Jeff Malmberg: Yes, exactly. <laughs> But I don't-- I don’t want to speak for you, so how was it for you?

Chris Shellen: It was wonderful. No, I'm very lucky. He's-- Jeff is an amazing collaborator. He's very generous, but it is a messy process. We always think back to the filmmakers Pennebaker and Hegedus, who also make documentaries and are legends in the business. And Chris Hegedus had this great quote about how every time the two of them go on set, they fall in love again, and every time they get into the editing suite, they get a divorce.

<laughs>

Chris Shellen: And that's very-- that's largely true.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, yeah.

Chris Shellen: You know, you sort of duke it out in the editing suite, but now we're past the editing suite, and we're back into the courtship <inaudible>.

Jeff Malmberg: We're just quibbling about press quotes or something.

Chris Shellen: Press-- right. <inaudible>.

Jeff Malmberg: A post or revisions.

Jo Reed: The more mundane things.

Jeff Malmberg: Yes. You know, your heart's not in it as much as the story itself.

Chris Shellen: So it's good, and I feel like it's made us stronger. And we have a daughter now.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah.

Chris Shellen: We have a toddler.

Jeff Malmberg: Yeah, I mean I think you want the movie to kind of ask you some questions, too, and I think it was sort of a really big question of What's your life like, and what do you want to do to change it? And it was doing that film that made us really commit to wanting to have a family. So it's been a great opportunity for us to not only learn to collaborate better but also decide how we want to live our life and what's important to us because, you know, here's an example of a way of living that I just really admire. I think it's so beautiful.

Jo Reed: I completely agree, and I think you captured it so wonderfully on film. This will stay with me for sure.

That was filmmakers Chris Shellen and Jeff Malmberg, we were talking about their documentary Spettacolo. You can find out more about it at Spettacolofilm.com.

You've been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts.

I'm Josephine Reed. Thanks for listening.