Music Credit: : “NY” composed and performed by Kosta T, from the cd, Soul Sand.
<music up>
Mary Rand Hess: I think it really puts you in a place where you can respect a poem. You've dissected it. And you've broken it down. And you're really living the poem. And you are expressing it--you are the living walking poem in that moment.
Jo Reed: That’s poet, writer, mixed media artist, and a judge for the Poetry Out Loud final, Mary Rand Hess. And this is Art Works, the weekly podcast produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed.
When I heard Mary Rand Hess was going to be one of the judges for the NEA’s national poetry competition, Poetry Out Loud, I was thrilled. She is the co-author with Newbury Medalist, Kwame Alexander of two of my favorite books for young adults: Solo, a book that has rock ‘n’ roll at its spine; and Swing, a book centered around jazz and baseball. Both Solo and Swing are rich and moving portraits of teenage boys, working their way through a world they didn’t make, and both are written entirely inverse. And it’s verse that flows effortlessly to create complex stories. Mary Rand Hess has also collaborated on wonderful children’s books, with photographers Joel Sartore and Jerry Ellis. But because Solo and Swing are two of my favorites, that’s where I began my conversation with her. I wanted to know about her collaboration with Kwame Alexander from its beginning.
Mary Rand Hess: We met through our writing group and we just we had such an appreciation for each other's work and he's such a talented, gifted writer and speaker. I had been playing around with a story in my mind for years and I wanted to do a story about rock and roll and Africa and I know that kind of seems random, two random pieces, but I really wanted a story to take place first in America and then end in Africa. And as I was talking with him, and it just sort of made sense to put it out there, “Kwame, what do you think about writing a novel in verse with me about rock and roll and Africa?” So it took him about a week or two to get back to me and I thought he's going to think I'm crazy for even asking but he said yes. And at first I was thinking Tanzania or Kenya, because I had been fascinated with those places. But, he had been to Ghana quite a bit and it just sort of made sense to put it there—it made sense. And so we began the journey of writing Solo together and it was an amazing experience.
Jo Reed: Well, tell me about that experience because I'm really curious and why don't you first give us just a thumbnail sketch of the story?
Mary Rand Hess: So Solo, at the heart of it the story is about Blade and him finding his own sense of place in the world. His dad is a fallen rock star and he's a musician in his own right. And his dad just kind of consumes, you know, the tabloids with one misstep after another. And he's trying to find his way without his mother who had passed away when he was younger. A family secret is revealed and that family secret takes him to Ghana and I don't want to give it away.
Jo Reed: No, don't give it away. I think that's just perfect, just so people get a sense. That world, that crazy world of his father's, you and Kwame makes so vivid. How much research was involved? How much listening was involved? How much rock ‘n’ roll?
Mary Rand Hess: Well, I have to say, you know, we both love rock and roll and I literally I'm not kidding graduated from the crib to rock and roll because I have an older brother and I was listening to Kiss. I think I was just three years old listening to Kiss <laughs> and I thought that was the greatest music around. Other of my friends were listening to nursery rhymes and I was listening to Kiss. And I just had a fascination with rock ‘n’ roll and I always dreamed I would become a rock star—and that did not happen. But I just collected a great plethora of music. I listen to music all the time still and just reading, you know, issues of Rolling Stone magazine and watching documentaries on rock musicians, I think it just inspired so much of that. And then knowing some musicians in my life, too, who are not famous, but then that struggle of being a musician that kind of played a big part into it.
Jo Reed: There are, obviously, many, many rock bands who are older and still playing. To me, it's such a young person's game.
Mary Rand Hess: Yes. Yes.
Jo Reed: You know, it's like jazz when you're an adult; rock and roll when you're a kid.
<group laughter>
Mary Rand Hess: And I get that because there's so much-- well, there's so much energy in both, jazz and rock and roll, right, but it's a different tempo. It's- it’s- it’s got a different feel to it. Although, I have to say I'm still a rockhead. I love jazz so much but I still listen to copious amounts of rock and roll.
Jo Reed: Oh, as do I.
<group laughter>
Mary Rand Hess: Yes.
Jo Reed: And it's not like I'm not walking around pretending I'm on the stage, but I'm just saying…
<group laughter>
Mary Rand Hess: I might dream of it still but it's not going to happen.
Jo Reed: And so how did you guys proceed? How did you write? Did you email? Did you meet? Did you have an outline?
Mary Rand Hess: We definitely had an outline and we had a lot of drafts going. I will say that it's a lot of magic and mayhem; that's what I tell people. When we work together, it's very hard to describe, but it's piecemeal. You know, I write part of the story. He writes part of it. We exchange and we revised. So let's say I write 10 poems, he might write 10 and then we exchange and we sort of work that way. And we work from across the country, sometimes, from across the world. He travels quite a bit and he may be overseas in England and I might be here. And we text. We email. We get on the phone. And sometimes we're able to write in his writing studio or at my dining room table.
Jo Reed: Here's a question I have, when you're writing different poems are you typically writing about the same idea, the same section of the book so that you're approaching the same parts of the book at the same time or could you be in the beginning of the book and he's at the end?
Mary Rand Hess: It really varied. A lot of times I think when we were at the same section at the same time, it was sort of during the revision process and that's one thing that I will say, revision is such a writer's friend because that's when you really get to hone in and add the layers. But during the beginning say, you know, sometimes I would take a stab at one draft. He would take a stab at another draft, different sections of the book to strengthen it. And then we would work together to layer more. And I would say the magic of the writing definitely comes in the revision.
Jo Reed: But what about sewing it together? How did you guys figure that one out?
Mary Rand Hess: <laughs> You mean just like weaving it all together?
Jo Reed: Yes. If you're writing different sections at different times, that just to me seems overwhelming because A it's a book in verse, so you have how many verses? I didn't even count, but, a lot.
Mary Rand Hess: It's a lot.
Jo Reed: A lot. And then placing them so that it tells the seamless story which it does.
Mary Rand Hess: Well, thank you. It is a lot of work and it's a lot of trust. And the fact that we have similar sensibilities and our voices meld very well together, I think, that helps a lot. And just knowing based on the outline of where we're going. But sometimes to be honest with you, we didn't always know where we were going. You know, you figure things out as you go along and the story needs to shift and mold based on the characters. And there's so much growth that needs to happen in a story and there was some surprise elements that came about as we were writing
Jo Reed: For you?
Mary Rand Hess: For me, yes, for sure. And for him. I think we were just surprised once you know, we got into I don't know say draft number, you know, 13 or something it just-- we would have-- we would throw in a, you know, a wrench all of a sudden. Wow. I didn't see that coming, but this is an element we need to add to the story to really get it to where it needs to go and to have Blade grow. And it was just so exciting. I will say writing with Kwame definitely keeps me on my toes.
Jo Reed: Is it fun writing with a collaborator, Kwame aside, which is hard to do, but we think of writing as so solitary and just knowing that there's a back and forth with the collaborator, I would imagine would be wonderful.
Mary Rand Hess: I love it, and I've collaborated with other authors as well. Jerry Ellis. He's a National Geographic photographer and a filmmaker and a writer and he's been incredible to work with as well. He gets up close and personal with great apes and we did a book on chimpanzees together. So it's a lot of trust and back and forth and I find it very enriching and I learned so much from working with others that I personally love collaboration and I'm getting ready to do a book or I have done a book it’s getting ready to come out in September with Steve Gregg and he rescues senior dogs and other pets and he has nine dogs and a pig and chickens. And he is so entertaining.
Jo Reed: He’s my kind of guy, that’s who he is.
Mary Rand Hess: And he’s fantastic. He's had his-- he’s Insta-famous on Instagram with all his pets. Everyone loves his journey. So I've learned a lot working with him because I'm such a dog lover and I read that you're a dog lover too.
Jo Reed: I am. I am. I have two rescue dogs.
Mary Rand Hess: Oh, that's awesome. Well, those are the best. They have so much love to give.
Jo Reed: So let me just ask you this before we talk a little bit about Swing, which is your second collaboration with Kwame Alexander and that is, what is the draw for writing for kids or writing for young adults? Because that seems to be your wheelhouse.
Mary Rand Hess: That's a great question. And to be honest I haven't thought about what really draws me to either, other than I love children and teens. I have two teenage sons at home, a 16 and 18-year-old. And, you know, just watching them grow up, watching their friends and all my nieces and nephews and my friends’ children, and just knowing that at heart I'm still a child at heart. I always will be. And I remember those formative years and so I like writing for all ages. And to be honest, I feel like picture books are for everyone. You know, they-- when you read a picture book with a child you're bonding and so it's for the adult too. And for a young adult I think when you're writing for them, you're opening up their world and a place for them to-- a safe place for them to understand themselves and their own journeys. I think it's important. I just love writing for all ages to be honest.
Jo Reed: Your second book with Kwame, Swing, this one is a focus on baseball and jazz. Again, tell me how this project came together.
Mary Rand Hess: As we were thinking about what we wanted to write next we knew we wanted music. Music is so important to both of us and we both love jazz. And he grew up with a lot of jazz; where I grew up with a lot of rock and roll, he grew up with a lot of jazz from his father's influence. Dr. E. Curtis Alexander had a huge collection of records, and I know that Kwame would go up, I think, in the attic or upstairs somewhere and then and I remember him telling me the story and dig around for his father's records and really fell in love with jazz. And I had my own experiences with jazz and it was just, you know, it made sense that we’d do a story that was kind of centered with the heart of it would be jazz. And we wanted characters that had, you know, a life outside of jazz as well and baseball fields jazzy. You know, there's something very Americana about baseball and jazz and it just seemed to fit really well together. And Kwame loves sports books. He's done one, you know, The Crossover and basketball, soccer was Booked. I think he's writing one about tennis now. And it just made sense we’d add sports in there, too. And we also wanted to add in social justice. We felt that was very important and timely and-- well, to be honest it's been timely for many, many, many, many years. But you know, people are finally coming out and speaking about these issues and really, really bringing attention to them and we felt Swing was an important book for us to do that.
Jo Reed: No, can you again, a thumbnail about the plot of Swing?
Mary Rand Hess: Swing is about two best friends, who are trying to, you know, find their way in the world trying to find their voice. Walt, AKA, Swing wants to play baseball more than anything. And Noah, you know, he's kind of given up on baseball, but really wants that girl he's loved for years. And now's their chance. They're juniors. They’re going to be seniors. And they're living their best lives trying to fill their way into the world. And Walt is more, you know, outgoing and authentic to himself and he's trying to pull Noah out of his shell. And Noah finally does that with art work and he finds his own way to communicate with Sam, the girl he loves. And everything seems to be going pretty well, until something happens. Until something happens. I don't want to give anything away.
Jo Reed: No, of course not. So there are a couple of things, and the first is, at the heart of it, is a friendship between two guys and I love books about friendship. I think they're so rare and should be treasured—especially with guys. So I think that's wonderful. And then, of course, is this love story that's happening parallel to it. But then there are other issues that you bring into this as you say issues of social justice, so I'm curious about how you balance this so that it all works together—how you manage to balance that, of knowing when to sort of move to darker places and knowing when to draw back?
Mary Rand Hess: Well, I think that's life. You know? That's the other thing we wanted to show, you know, this is art imitating life, and that we go about our days laughing with our best friends, trying to live our best lives. We have goals and dreams. We want to make the baseball team. We want to be a great artist. We want to get ourselves out there and have meaningful experiences and then things happen—unfair things, unjust things. And we needed to balance that with humor because that is life. Life is both humorous and it's tragic and it's beautiful. It’s a mix of many things.
Jo Reed: Was this a hard book to write?
Mary Rand Hess: It was a very hard book to write. It was a fun book to write in moments. We laughed. I could say Kwame and I actually had some great laughs. And then we had some tears. I know that I cried quite a bit writing it and I know he was emotional as well. It was not easy to write.
Jo Reed: And did your writing together did that collaboration change at all with Swing, just because you'd already done it with Solo so you’re sophomores now, and you know, streamlined it a bit.
Mary Rand Hess: That's a great question. It changed because it was a different story and it required different layers. I also suddenly became artist again. You know, I'm a mixed media artist, as well. And so in the character of Noah, I was creating art, so we added a new layer there and that interrupted things a little bit, but not in a bad way, in a good way.
Jo Reed: Oh, I thought they were beautiful. I was going to ask you about those. I thought they might be yours.
Mary Rand Hess: Thank you.
Jo Reed: There are striking multimedia images scattered throughout the book.
Mary Rand Hess: Thank you. And it was interesting because it's the first time I created mixed media in the character of someone as opposed to my own mixed media. So I was having to think like Noah and be Noah in those moments. So it was a different experience just because there were different layers in the book and there was different music. And I think we wrote quite a bit in his studio because that had been recently finished. So we had more time to write in his studio with Swing and that was a really nice place to write. But in terms of kind of the exchanges of emails and texts and exchanging poems, it was somewhat similar, a little bit of chaos and mayhem, and a little bit of magic.
Jo Reed: Tell me about you. Did you always see yourself as a poet?
Mary Rand Hess: I grew up just a natural storyteller. I loved telling stories from a very young age. And I mean, way before I began writing I was putting on puppet shows and adapting books and putting on plays. And I had a storyboard and I would create characters on my storyboard and do, you know, character traits for them and I just loved story. But, in truth, I thought it was going to be-- I really thought it was going to be a rock star and I started out as a musician. And I got a scholarship, partial scholarship for music composition, because I played on the piano and I composed my own music. But I soon realized that the story of me struggling as a musician was not as exciting as a story about writing about other lives and creating these worlds because that's really at heart what I am is a storyteller. So I kind of always knew it was there, but I was denying it for a while. And then poetry has always played a big part and I think that's because to me poetry and music are intertwined.
Jo Reed: Hmm, I can see that.
Mary Rand Hess: They are so connected. Really I feel like music is poetry and poetry is music.
Jo Reed: When you were a kid, what books did you find compelling?
Mary Rand Hess: I would say Charlotte's Web was huge in changing my life. I read that story and I took that story and I created puppets and I put on a puppet show for my class in second grade. And I remember my teacher asking me to perform it again, and it was just I think a week before then, she said she was having nightmares about me because I was always in my own mind imagining and kind of daydreaming. So I don't think she knew I had that in me and so it really impacted me that story, not just for the story but what it did for me as a learner and as a creative person. And then the other one I loved was Bridge to Terabithia. I think that was the first book that I actually cried after reading it and I remember thinking to myself, “Wow, books, you know, they can really, really move you and change you. It can make you cry.” And I knew that was just a game changer for me right there.
Jo Reed: You didn't cry after Charlotte's Web?
Mary Rand Hess: I did cry but it was a different kind of cry. It was—Bridge to Terabithia was a rip your heart out, lost-his-best-friend kind of cry. So I think that that was definitely the book that changed me.
Jo Reed: Was that the book that gave you an a-ha moment of this actually is what I want to do? Or did that come later?
Mary Rand Hess: There was an a-ha moment and that was the year my teacher told my mother that she thought I would be an author one day and I corrected them both. I said, “No, a rock star.” <laughs> So I was still in denial. I was still determined but I knew in my heart, yes, I knew I wanted to write books that were compelling like, you know, Katherine Paterson.
Jo Reed: Before you switched from the music program to English and writing, were you writing on your own?
Mary Rand Hess: I actually started writing a novel even before I began my English writing classes, but once I did I was hooked. And I had amazing professors. I studied under Carolyn Forché, Marita Golden, Alan Cheuse at George Mason. That's where I ended up. I switched a couple times, but I ended up at George Mason and they just opened up the world for me. And reading is the main thing that gets you into writing, the more you read the wiser you are as a writer.
Jo Reed: When you begin to write, do you begin with an image? Do you begin with an idea? An emotion? How do you typically start?
Mary Rand Hess: I listen to a lot of music to get me started and sometimes it's a phrase. Sometimes it's an emotion. I feel like music is the way to tap into memory, emotions, images. I receive a lot of images when I listen to music. So I always typically begin with just plugging in my headphones and letting myself be free, you know, no constraints; just let myself kind of dream and be in that imaginative world and then the story comes. And sometimes a word, you know, word will come to me or an image of a character. So that's kind of how it begins.
Jo Reed: Are there special considerations that you have when you're actually writing for kids—things you need to think about space on the page, particular words that might appeal? How do you form that?
Mary Rand Hess: So with picture books it's, it's different, obviously, than writing for novels. But with picture books, you definitely think of space and the economy of words are very important. These days picture books are told with fewer words. And with novels, you know, you could be writing for hundreds and hundreds of pages, but we write in verse, and so we think of the economy of words as well. And we want delicious words. We want poignant words, words that kind of take your breath away and phrases and a play on words and metaphors that really stop you in your tracks. So we are thinking about words a lot. Words really matter when you're writing verse.
Jo Reed: Yeah. And I think there's something about writing in verse-- it really accesses emotions, I think, much more directly.
Mary Rand Hess: I agree. And that's why I love it because, I guess I'm kind of an emotional person. I really love tapping into that. And I think you kind of feel that with your characters. When you're reading a book when it's in verse I feel like I'm inside, I'm truly inside the mind of that character whether I'm writing it or reading another author’s book.
Jo Reed: And you and Kwame collaborated, again, and this is with really a kids’ book, but except it's not because the photographs are gorgeous with National Geographic photographer called, Animal Ark.
Mary Rand Hess: Yes. And that we wrote in haiku. And I love haiku.
Jo Reed: Talk about economy of words.
Mary Rand Hess: Yes. Yes. I mean really truly, right? It's just you have just so few words to capture an image and we had an amazing time writing that book. And it just-- it's a snapshot, right? Haiku is a snapshot at a moment in life. And these animals are so important, because they're endangered and some of them will go extinct, or maybe some of them have. Joel, I mean, has taken thousands and thousands of photos of creatures around the world and some of them have already gone extinct. So it was important to capture that moment in time and to kind of write these haiku that would get people thinking and stopping just for a moment, even if just for a moment to appreciate, you know, what we have here and to try to do better. And it amazes, in the diversity we have in this world.
Jo Reed: And the haiku, I think, you know as you say it's a snapshot and a snapshot sort of a textual snapshot I think works so well with the photograph.
Mary Rand Hess: I agree. And I think that's why we decided to go there because it just felt like that would work best with these amazing photographs. You didn't want to take away from the photographs by having long passages, and so, haiku just seemed to fit best.
Jo Reed: Now, I'm always interested in people who do many different artists art practices. So how do you know what form you're going to use when you want to express an idea or an emotion or a thought? I mean, how do you figure out, okay, this is a poem. Actually no, it's a multimedia image. No, actually it could be music.
Mary Rand Hess: You know, I'm glad you asked that question because I’m thinking about it right now and it just seems to come to me, almost in a way that's unexpected. I just know when I sit down to play the piano, I feel around for the keys and something comes up. It's almost as if it's a song that needs to be there and it needs to be played. And when a phrase comes up, we had fires out here in California. You probably heard of them and they were quite horrific. And we had been evacuated and I had been having some dreams about them because they were quite intense. And I know a phrase came to me and that phrase—I mean as soon as I woke up that phrase I typed it into my phone. I do a lot of writing them in the notes section of my phone—and I put it away for a while because I didn't want to go there. And then I pulled it up about a month ago and I wrote the poem—but I knew it needed to be a poem. It just was grounded in that space of poetry.
Jo Reed: So in some ways the content and the form are really tied together for you.
Mary Rand Hess: Absolutely, and the emotion.
Jo Reed: What are your habits? What are your writing habits? You juggle a lot, because you do many things and you have kids as well.
Mary Rand Hess: Right. There’s a lot of juggling that goes on for sure and in the morning, it's a very busy house. I have two sons. I have two dogs and my husband. And we're all running around and, like everyone else, you know, we're just trying to get our day started. I find that my mind really gets going at night. I try to write during the day. I try to kind of get the work done so I can go to bed at a normal time. It rarely works. I like to write, you know, somewhere around 9:00 P.M. to 4:00 A.M. And it's not the best healthiest, I would say, pattern of working and sleeping because, you know, you're getting up at seven when everyone else gets up. And so sometimes there's a nap involved but I'm a twilight writer. I just think there's a magic. I think there's kind of a mystery that happens at night in a quietness that allows my mind to really, kind of, explore.
Jo Reed: I understand that completely. I often wish I could live according to my clock, as opposed to the outside-world clock that's imposed on me, because I definitely am on the night-end of things.
Mary Rand Hess: So you totally get it.
Jo Reed: Oh, completely. Completely.
Mary Rand Hess: I’m the same way. If I could have my own clock it would be very unusual, but it would work for me.
Jo Reed: So you're coming to Washington D.C. to judge the Poetry Out Loud competition.
Mary Rand Hess: Yes. I'm so excited about that. I mean it just, to me, it's so thrilling to see poetry so alive and, you know, students so excited about competing for this prize. And really true to put themselves out there. I think it's got to be nerve-racking, right?
Jo Reed: Oh, yeah.
Mary Rand Hess: I'm just thrilled that I get to be there and witness this.
Jo Reed: What do you think is significant or important or compelling about learning a poem by heart? I mean, what do you think it does for the heart?
Mary Rand Hess: I think it really puts you in a place where you can respect a poem. You've dissected it. And you've broken it down. And you're really living the poem. And you are expressing it--you are the living walking poem in that moment. You're on stage and you've memorized it, but it's not just memorizing, right? There's tone and diction and expression, and it all has to meld together. You don't want one to stand out over the other. It needs to be a piece of art and that's what it is. It's recitation but it's also performance art in my mind, anyways. And so what these students have to do is they have to take all these pieces and really get up there and do their best. And I would think it was it would be intimidating for me. But I'm excited to watch them because I know how much effort they put into memorizing and also adding all the layers, so it's a great performance.
Jo Reed: Yeah. I think it's like, there's the composer, who composes the music, but then there's the musician who interprets it
Mary Rand Hess: Right.
Jo Reed: And I thought that's what the students are doing. They’re the pianist who’s playing the Beethoven.
Mary Rand Hess: That's an awesome analogy. I 100 percent agree. That's exactly what it's like. Yeah, I'm just thrilled to be there and to watch them all perform.
Jo Reed: Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It really is. So tell me what is next for you when you come back from Washington?
Mary Rand Hess: So when I come back, I'm working on another novel in verse. It's a solo project for me, no pun intended. This is my own work that I'm doing solo. I do write solo now and again. And I'm working on some screenplays. I also love writing screenplays because there is a lot of space to work in with and it's a different form of storytelling. I love good movies and television shows, too. So I'll be working on those things when I get back from D.C.
Jo Reed: Well, Mary, thank you, again.
Mary Rand Hess: And Jo and I’ve loved this conversation. You’re an amazing interviewer and you have an amazing podcast.
Jo Reed: Oh, thank you! Thank you for listening, I appreciate it! And I hope you have very good travels.
Mary Rand Hess: Thank you.
Jo Reed: That was poet, writer, and mixed media artist, Mary Rand Hess. She co-authored with Kwame Alexander, Solo, Swing and Animal Ark, and she’s one of the judges of the Poetry Out Loud final. The final takes place on May 1st at 7 P.M. Eastern at the Lisner Auditorium in Washington, D.C. It’s free and open to the public. And if you can’t make it, don’t despair, we’re streaming it live at arts.gov.
You’ve been listening to Art Works, the weekly podcast produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. Please subscribe to Art Works wherever you get your podcasts, and leave us a rating on Apple. It helps people to find us. For the National Endowment for the Arts, I’m Josephine Reed. Thanks for listening.
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