Jo Reed: From the National Endowment for the Arts, this is Art Works, I’m Josephine Reed

Karen Ann Daniels: I think it's hard when you fall in love with something in a particular way and you do want to share it with other people. And other people say, "But I don't want to love it that way." So I try to find empathy on both sides of this conversation because we love the things we love, but I also know we can grow to love other things. So what I'm hoping is that what we're going to be able to do is invite people on a journey of discovering what else they love. Expanding their sense of love around Shakespeare.

That is Karen Anne Daniels—she’s the Folger Shakespeare Library's Director of Programming and the Artistic Director of the Folger Theatre. Appointed in August 2021, Karen Ann came to the Folger at an interesting time—theaters were slowly beginning to reopen after the shutdown, a long overdue racial reckoning was roiling the theater community and the Folger itself was undertaking a massive renovation that meant any plays needed to be mounted on other stages around the city. It was a moment—and Karen Ann Daniels is meeting it. An accomplished actor, director, playwright, vocalist and musician, she came to Folger with a vision and strategy for programming that was deeply tied to community engagement and the experience to do it.  In her previous position as Director of The Public Theater’s Mobile Unit, Daniels has brought theater and the arts to community centers and spaces around New York City. While in her prior role as the associate director of The Old Globe’s arts engagement department in San Diego, she managed community partnerships, and created, piloted, and implemented many of its significant programs. I spoke with Karen Ann Daniels recently and began by asking her to explain her dual roles at the Folger: Director of Programming and Artistic Director of the Folger Theater.

Karen Ann Daniels: The Director of Programming really is about thinking with the collective of the Folger. We have a lot of things under one roof and thinking together about how we can program in such a way that feels more unified and more grounded in the mission, the vision, and the values of our institution. So thinking about, for example, thematically sometimes, what's happening in our collection, what's happening in our theatre, what's happening in our music program, our education, our institute. How are all these things speaking to each other and thinking about the audience that they're for. So at the center of all of our work, it's really engaging with audiences. And then of course, Artistic Director of the Theater, that feels a little self-explanatory.  We have a regional theatre embedded inside of all of this that does bring people in and out of this place all year long. And that's around activating what's in the core of our collection, which is our folios and the stories that are in those folios, and so those plays happen on our stage. And there, I'm just artistically thinking about the moment we're in, again, the audiences that we want to come and experience Shakespeare for the first time, and thinking about how Shakespeare influences and impacts our lives and our world today.

Jo Reed: You came to the Folger just as theatres were beginning to reopen after the pandemic. It was during a big racial reckoning that we're still undergoing and the Folger itself was undergoing a massive renovation. So these, to me, would seem like both tremendous challenges, but also big opportunities. So how did you grapple with all of this, and how does coming in in the midst of all this tumult inform your vision?

Karen Ann Daniels: Yeah, I think there's a real interesting connection. The fates aligned this a little bit. That's sort of my perspective, I like to think everything's moving my way. But thinking about how this is an institution that did press pause on its normal and regular operation right as the pandemic hit. All the things that happened, happened during the pandemic. But the core idea of this renovation really was to open up the Folger to more people, and the conclusion we've all come to has been that we're going to start where we are. Start with the neighborhood, start with the communities of DC that maybe we have never engaged in a sort of an intentional way before, or maybe not consistently. So I think the pandemic presented a unique opportunity for the Folger to think literally outside of its box, and to think about how we could go to where people are, instead of asking people to come to us. And I think that's the adventure, that's kind of the world that I come out of anyways, so for me, it was more just sort of leaning in to the things that I've done before, the things I believe about reaching audiences that are new to us, and engaging with people in meaningful ways. And I think it always begins with going and introducing yourself, go to their house before you invite them to yours.

Jo Reed: I'm so glad you brought this up, because you came to the Folger from New York City's Public Theatre, where you directed the Mobile Unit, which brings theater all around the city. Which is daunting, but also different from this charge of wanting to invite people into the Folger. But at the same time, I'm sure the philosophies you used in New York, you can bring to the Folger.

Karen Ann Daniels: Yes, absolutely. I think the work that we did with the Mobile Unit, going to all these different boroughs, I mean, if you've been to New York, every one of them is different. You move a couple of blocks, and it's a very different community of people that are there and so how do I take this model of work and adapt it to the cities and the communities that are DC, which are very different as well. So it's about getting to know all the different wards of DC, understanding some of the sort of historic challenges here. But also, the work that I did at the Mobile Unit, also the work I did in San Diego, has taught me that it's absolutely possible and in fact, people really appreciate when you do make the effort to go to where they are.

Jo Reed: Let's discuss some of the programs you've implemented already and let's begin with the absolutely stunning Midsummer Night's Dream at the Building Museum, starring Jacob Ming Trent, who He's just amazing.

Karen Ann Daniels: Yes, he is. He really is. Yeah, that was a tremendous opportunity for partnership, number one. We built a theater inside of the National Building Museum's atrium, and that’s this great hall with lots of windows at the top, and that was a challenge. But also, we were able to activate a book from our collection.  We worked with the National Building Museum, and they blew it up into an oversized book you could walk through and experience called “A Knavish Lad.” So that was cool, and then we programmed the heck out of it, frankly. We did a show, but we also held classes that took aspects, took ideas and thematic things, and just invited people all summer long to take part in it. We also invited other people to come and perform in the space when it wasn't being used during the day or on our nights off. We brought out the Frontera Project from Tijuana, and they came and performed on that stage, and that was in conjunction with another exhibition that the National Building Museum already had called The Wall. So that was a neat opportunity too, to just see who else, what other artists, what other conversations we could be part of that felt relevant and urgent, and also just artists that we could, you know, say, "Hey, come hang out with the Folger for a little bit."

Jo Reed: You've already implemented at least two new programs  at the Folger, and I'd would like to hear about them. Let’s start with The Reading Room Festival.  

Karen Ann Daniels: The Reading Room Festival is an opportunity to invite artists to come in, artists in particular that are thinking about Shakespeare and inspired by Shakespeare, that want to have conversations about Shakespeare and who are iterating, really, off of him. So I want to give them an opportunity to work through, and what better place than the Folger, where we have so much here in our collection, in our actual Reading Room to really inform and activate their imaginations. And also to invite audiences into the process of making theater. I think it's really important to bring people in much sooner than just the performance. I think when we think about the creativity, the intellect, the imagination, the scholarship that actually goes in to making a play and telling a story, that's part of why we think Shakespeare is so fascinating. And we have our own bards out here in the world today still doing that work to tell our stories. One of the reasons why I was really excited to think about this festival, so many people approach all the time, "Hey, I'm writing this story about Jessica from Merchant of Venice," or "Hey, I've got this one-person show that talks about how Shakespeare changed my life." And I think that Shakespeare ultimately demonstrates for us the importance of telling our stories. Hamlet tells Horatio to "Tell my story," and I think that that's one of the ways that we create relevance and connection to our contemporary audiences today.

Jo Reed: The other program that you created is Works in Progress. 

Karen Ann Daniels: Yeah, Works in Progress kind of also builds a little bit off of the Reading Room Festival. It invites community members to be the artist, so to not just be the receiver of the art, but to actually be the makers themselves. We take three aspects of what Shakespeare did. We take poetry, we take music, and we take playwriting and invite folks to choose a track or to mix and match. And to dig in to think about telling their stories using and understanding some of the principles that Shakespeare actually utilized when writing his plays and his sonnets and his songs.

Jo Reed: In San Diego, you were the Associate Director of the Old Globe's Arts Engagement Department, which created many programs while you were there, which had to be very gratifying since that's your hometown. Can you describe a memorable project that you were involved with during your time there?

Karen Ann Daniels: Oh my gosh, just one? So many, I mean, I really thank the communities in San Diego for entrusting their stories, their passions to us in the Arts Engagement Department, because I really feel like that's what taught me. You know, that's where my education really comes from in this work. We did a lot of things. We worked in corrections. We piloted some programs there that I'm very proud of that have been running almost continuously since then--actually pandemic included, they figured out a way to continue. We also created Colab. Colab-- I think of that one as my personal baby. That was my heart because you know, I am from San Diego and San Diego is a very, very diverse place and it has some of the largest immigrant communities. So being able to get to know people from different cultural histories and backgrounds, I mean, that's how I grew up there, and so inviting them in to tell their own stories and create the stories that they want, it was just a privilege to come in and say, "Hey, I've got sound. I got lights. I've got people who know how to write plays." "I've got all sorts of access to these resources, what do you want to do?" And that was sort of at the heart of Colab, which is just to help support and enhance the storytelling that other communities wanted to create. So that to me is maybe one of the most tremendous things that we can do in any cultural institution, which is we can find our value, I think, in helping other people activate the things that are important to them. By that we're saying, "Use our resources, use what we have, our tools, our expertise, so that we can help uplift you," and I think that comes back to institutions tenfold when we do that from an authentic place.

Jo Reed: Growing up, where were the arts in your life? Did you go to the theater? Did you put on plays or musicals in your living room? How did the arts function for you?

Karen Ann Daniels: Yeah, the answer is yes. All of the above and then maybe a few more. I mean, I think I always kind of woke up singing one day. Music was the entry point. Played the piano, sang, probably flopped around the living room, calling it dance a lot. Coordinated shows with neighbor friends. I actually never really did any theater proper until I got to-- not high school, but to college. So I took a drama class, I did those things in high school because I went to a performing arts high school, but I was a vocal music major there. And it wasn't until I got to college that I did my very first official show and... I think I always had the bug, but the bug caught me there. I grew up in a family that, you know, my parents, if they saw a show, they'd drive us to Los Angeles so we could go see it. I saw Robert Guillaume do Phantom of the Opera twice. I was lucky to see him do that. Those moments in particular for me as a Black woman, as a child of a Jamaican immigrant as well, it was really important to see people like me and my parents made efforts to do that. So that I kind of have a vision of what the world is that might be… not typical. They also tried to show me what was possible. I went to the opera every season from sixth grade until, I think 12th grade, when I probably stopped going just because I was too busy. So yeah, that's kind of how I grew up.

Jo Reed: What about Shakespeare? When did he become central to your life, do you have a Shakespeare origin story?

Karen Ann Daniels: I think I have multiple origin stories, and that's to say that, of course, we learn about Shakespeare in school, and I had a really great English teacher in 10th grade who really dug into poetry a lot and encouraged us to write our own. So I think my first real deep engagement with him was through poetry and as a songwriter myself, that's one of the things that first appealed to me about Shakespeare. And then I think during the 90s, there was two things that were happening. There's tons of Shakespeare in cartoons. So let me just flag that. I was a huge cartoon kid. I've told this to people, "Go look up Duck Tales and I think it's season one and the episode is called Much Ado About McDuck." And that is where I first heard the Seven Ages of Man and the All the World's a Stage Speech, and I remember that particularly well. It stuck with me because it resonated clearly with me, I think, as an artist and then I think from there, it was really the films, the Kenneth Branagh films, that kind of went from one to the other to the other. And I was a huge film kid, so I actually thought I was going to be a filmmaker and not a theater artist. So I ended up being really obsessed with those stories on film.

Jo Reed: I wonder for you, Karen Anne, when did the emphasis change for you from performing to directing and writing, which, of course, I know you still do. But taking that meta look at theater.

Karen Ann Daniels: I would say I think it was always there. Like I said, I thought I was going to go into film, and I wanted to go into film as a director. So I was very focused at a young age on directing and visually thinking. But then the performer met the director and they got married. And, you know, the performer, she took over for a little while because, frankly, I think I saw it as a young person's game and if I was going to do it, I needed to do it while I was young. And then I took a break for a little while and went out into the world and did other things and learned other things that mattered, did some teaching, worked with students. The things that I did taught me about the skills that I had developed through being a theater artist, that made me more adaptable in the world. And to appreciate that all cultures, all communities create art in some capacity and that marching in as sort of the experts of it all is sort of like telling somebody you're not a human being until you've come to the theater. So taking that away, and just meeting people where they are is a big piece of the lessons that I learned over the years.

Jo Reed: We've begun the new season at the Folger and you began with “The Winter's Tale” and it also actually took place in the Folger. I mean the building is still undergoing renovations, but it gave us a real idea of what it was going to be like, it was very exciting to be back. So why “The Winter's Tale”, not just to open the season, but also to open the building, especially as you want to expand the Folger's local footprint? How does that speak to that bigger vision?

Karen Ann Daniels: I think it was a little on the nose in some ways, thinking a lot about the transformation of this institution. And at the heart of any kind of transformation, particularly in cultural institutions, it's not just a physical one, right? It can't be just a physical transformation. It's somewhat of an ideological one. It's a metaphysical one. It's a spiritual one. The whole culture of this place has to shift in order to, I think, meet the objectives of this renovation, and that is to make this a more welcoming place, a more accessible place in all of the ways. And to think about the people who have yet to come, right? And I think that “The Winter's Tale” was, in a weird way, a story that we could tell our story through. I think that's kind of my short answer.

Jo Reed: Why don't you tell us what else you have in store for us at the Folger, where you're really opening it up in a lot of ways. So share what you're doing.

Karen Ann Daniels: Yeah, I would love to. So I mean, obviously, we're going to continue with the programming of our theater. We'll continue with a lot of our music and our poetry programs. We've added some virtual things during this time, our book club, which has people from all over the planet attending it, which is actually pretty phenomenal, even though we're out of that sort of pandemic moment. We see a couple hundred folks joining us online every month, so that's really been fantastic. In this last spring, we piloted a tour called Searching for Shakespeare. So that's one of the other things that's new for us and I sort of adapted that model from the Old Globe and from the public theater, and we went to all the different wards, partnered with DCPL. 

Jo Reed: That’s the DC Public Library

Karen Ann Daniels: Yes. So I'm hoping that we continue to do that kind of work where we're going to people, where we're cultivating new stories that are wrangling with Shakespeare, iterating off of him, engaged with him, and going to where people are. So I'm hoping that's something that we will continue to do over time, as well as to continue to bring other elements of this place, not just the theater, but thinking about our collection and how our collection shows up in other places. The other kinds of programming, I'm hoping to just invite people to come to the Folger. To take some of that DNA, particularly of the work I did at the Old Globe, of just hosting events here that involve our community and the cultures and the different perspectives people have. Inviting them to come and hang out and get to know all of the aspects of the Folger, and we will do that through workshops and classes and concerts on the lawn, as well as being able to just come and engage deeply through tours and docents and things with our Shakespeare collection. And then also doing touring, hopefully down the line, touring exhibitions, but bringing people into different shows that focus on different ideas. That's kind of the big thing. It doesn't sound like, you know what I'm saying out loud, I'm like, "Oh, it doesn't sound that radical." But it is radical in the sense that it's really thinking about who's yet to come and going out and talking to people and constantly talking to people and getting to know, how they want to engage. How can it be mutually beneficial, and just making sure people know they're welcome, and that Folger's another cultural home for them here in DC.

Jo Reed: I'm so curious because you've worked at theaters in San Diego, in New York, and in Washington, DC, and I'm wondering how the local communities in each city kind of influence the work that's produced.

Karen Ann Daniels: Oh, always. I'm always thinking about who's here, you know, looking even just down to the demographics and the census and understanding the shape of a community and what are the sort of political structures that are embedded in each of these places. So thinking about schools, thinking about the parents and the teachers that are there. I think, depending on where you are, you're looking at even some of the religious structures and how that impacts the way a community behaves. We used to go to a Catholic church with our tour in San Diego every year in the Chaldean community there. And it was phenomenal and I remember sometimes you think, "Should this cultural institution go to a Catholic church?" But I tell you what, people showed up. It was a space that was important in that community, and I think that's part of the chemistry of this work is being willing to go kind of anywhere and get to know people and to build something that feels valuable to them and to us.

Jo Reed: I wonder what you think are some of the biggest challenges facing theater today, in general, and specifically with the Folger?

Karen Ann Daniels: Ooh, that's a big question. I think obviously the return of audience is a challenge still, and I think it will be. I think COVID still presents a lot of challenges for theaters. We're still coming back in many ways and actually still seeing, I think, the ripple effects of the pandemic on us. And depending on where you are geographically and the economic situation, of your city, I was talking to somebody in Alabama the other day, and they were saying how we're a destination town and nobody's coming here right now, right? We had to change our model. We have to figure out how we work, and I think that's what's happening all over the place. I also think that theater in some respects has been a bit calcified and so we've ignored the changing demographics. We've ignored the sort of generations of people. We've resisted, I think, welcoming different cultural perspectives, identity perspectives and now we're trying to do it all kind of at once. And I think our current audiences are kind of shaking their heads a little bit about like, "Wait, what's happening?" And really, it's just that there's been a gap. There's been a generational gap for a really long time, and the pandemic really put a-- not just put a spotlight on it, but it kind of like dug a hole for us to fall into. So I'll be really interested to see, I do think this work of getting to know your communities and engaging with people is a piece of the solution. Being willing to sort of break free from the confines of our spaces, and I think trust the relationship building process will find its way back to us, but it will change us and I think that's sometimes the fear is, "Will it change too much? Will I no longer be welcome here? Will I be seen here?" And I think as long as we're all kind of in it together, I don't think that's actually a realistic fear. But I do think we have to be able to talk about it.

Jo Reed: Do you think it's a particularly challenging proposition for the Folger Shakespeare theater, to deal with? because of the expectations around Shakespeare. Of course, we see how completely wonderful Shakespeare can be as it moves through cultures and through generations. The Public Theater in New York reopening  in Central Park after the pandemic with the Merry Wives set in Washington Heights in Ghanian and Nigerian communities….. I mean, my God, that was great theater; it was great Shakespeare. It was visionary work. And it was unexpected—which can be an issue for some. So I  wonder if… Because of the way Shakespeare is positioned in our culture, whether the hill you have is perhaps a little bit steeper, though completely wonderful to climb.

Karen Ann Daniels: Yeah. I mean, well, uh-huh. Yeah. I think it's hard when you fall in love with something in a particular way and you do want to share it with other people. And other people say, "But I don't want to love it that way." So I try to find empathy on both sides of this conversation because we love the things we love, but I also know we can grow to love other things. So what I'm hoping is that what we're going to be able to do is invite people on a journey of discovering what else they love. Expanding their sense of love around Shakespeare. Being honest, I think about the history of Shakespeare as a complex, complex, guy and I don't think he started that way. I think we used him that way and I think we have to take the time and the effort to continue to understand where he can be an obstacle, and where he can be an agent of change and really just expanding that love, frankly.

Jo Reed: You probably already answered this, but just to sum up, what are you most excited about as you look at the season ahead of you?

Karen Ann Daniels: I mean, I'm really excited about the festival. Frankly, the Reading Room Festival is one of my favorite things. I mean, even just kind of how you talked about Merry Wives in the Park, and that beautiful production that really adapted it into a specific lens, but we still felt like it was Shakespeare, and we still had a really great time. And it took us out of ourselves for that time period in a way that still invited us to engage with new ideas and new perspectives and new cultural frameworks. So that's why I love the Reading Room Festival. I think it invites that, it invites the deeper scholarship that over time, that's what I'm hoping to do. To get these scholars who are looking into that early modern record, who are thinking about who's not represented there, who's invisiblized. But also what are some really cool ways we make Shakespeare relevant to who we are right now, or how can it be a lens on the challenges that we're facing? And so I think the Reading Room Festival is a really fun way to just start putting those ideas out there and giving artists support to create those stories and to create work that all of us can still find ourselves in, but that might illuminate other perspectives.

Jo Reed: I think that is a great place to leave it, Karen Anne. Thank you. I, for one, cannot wait to see what else you're going to be doing because I'm loving what you're doing so far.

Karen Ann Daniels: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for the time. Appreciate it. I love this place. We have so much cool things that we can do.

Jo Reed:  That was Karen Ann Daniels—she is the Folger Shakespeare Library’s Director of Programming and Artistic Director of Folger Theatre— it’s second Read Room Festival runs from January 25-28,  you can get more information about it and   keep up with all the events at the Folger at folger.edu…we’ll have a link in our show notes.

You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating on Apple. It helps other people who love the arts to find us. I’m Josephine Reed—thanks for listening.

Karen Ann Daniels: The core idea of this renovation really was to open up the Folger to more people, and the conclusion we've all come to has been that we're going to start where we are. Start with the neighborhood, start with the communities of DC that maybe we have never engaged in a sort of an intentional way before, or maybe not consistently. So I think the pandemic presented a unique opportunity for the Folger to think literally outside of its box, and to think about how we could go to where people are, instead of asking people to come to us. And I think that's the adventure, that's kind of the world that I come out of anyway, so for me, it was more just sort of leaning in to the things that I've done before, the things I believe about reaching audiences that are new to us, and engaging with people in meaningful ways. And I think it always begins with going and introducing yourself, go to their house before you invite them to yours.

Music Credits: “NY” composed and performed by Kosta T, from the cd Soul Sand, used courtesy of the  Free Music Archive.

Jo Reed: From the National Endowment for the Arts, this is Art Works, I’m Josephine Reed.

Brandon Victor Dixon: I love the community, co-operational element of theater, and I love the inspirational, aspirational element of theater. I think those are those are the things, art is the most exponentially transformative tool that we have as a culture and a community, and I think theater is an ultimate synthesis of those elements.

Jo Reed: You just heard actor, singer, and producer Brandon Victor Dixon..a Broadway triple threat with one of the best singing voices on stage today. Here’s a glimpse—and just a glimpse—of some of his work on Broadway: he originated the roles of Harpo in “The Color Purple”, Eubie Blake in “Shuffle Along” and “Berry Gordy” in Motown the Musical—all Tony-Award nominated performances. He assumed the role of Aaron Burr in “Hamilton” and starred opposite John Legend as Judas in live televised version of “Jesus Christ Superstar” which earned him an Emmy-Award nomination. As a producer, Brandon’s credits include the Broadway production of “Hedwig and the Angry Inch”  which won the 2014 Tony Award and the Drama Desk Award for best revival of a musical. Brandon is gearing up for a one-night concert benefitting the Classical Theater of Harlem called “Here for the Holidays” even as he performs in the new Alicia Key’s musical “Hell’s Kitchen” at NYC’s Public Theater And Hell’s Kitchen is where I began my conversation with Brandon Victor Dixon 

Jo Reed: Brandon, your current play at the Public Theater, Hell's Kitchen, is generating a lot of buzz. Can you just tell us what attracted you to this project, and a little bit about Davis, the character you play?

Brandon Victor Dixon: Well, the primary attractions to the project for me were Michael Greif, who is an individual with whom I have a relationship. 

Jo Reed: And Michael Greif is the director

Brandon Victor Dixon:  Yes. We've worked together multiple times. And Alicia Keys, and the work of Alicia Keys, I've always been a big fan of hers and I thought the idea of her doing a musical, exploring her art in this format, was going to be a success. And I get to play her absentee father, Davis, in the play, and really, Davis is an individual with whom both her and her mother have a complicated relationship, but a relationship that does find its balance. Davis is a musician, and he and Ally's mother, they're not in a current, ongoing relationship, they're not married, he lives out of the state. But they do maintain a level of contact and when she reaches a catalytic point in her relationship with Ally, she reaches out to see if he can pay them a visit.

Jo Reed: And just to say, Ally plays, I guess, what we would call the Alicia Keys character in “Hell's Kitchen.”

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes. Ally is our Alicia Keys archetype. But she is the young girl whom we all watch come of age in our play.

Jo Reed: One of the songs you sing  with Shoshana Bean, who plays Ally's mother is “Not Even The King”  Tell me what that experience is like, delivering that Alicia Keys song.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Well, it's a lot of fun. Alicia had a very specific idea from the beginning, that she wanted to approach it differently than how she does the record. And singing it with somebody like Shoshana, who's such a wonderful singer and a wonderful actress, makes it a fun number within which we can play each evening

Jo Reed: I'm curious, you used the word "play." Are you a performer who likes to change things up? Or do you prefer to freeze a performance?

Brandon Victor Dixon: You know, it's interesting. I am a performer who does make adjustments and does like to alter things, or just likes to exist in the moment. But I am amongst artists who like to do that as well, even to some greater extent than I at times. So it's interesting to be the conservative amongst the group, when I'm usually the I'm usually the commando, the outlier.

Jo Reed: I love knowing about artistic process and I would really love to have you talk about what it's like to create a role, and we can use the role of Davis as an example, though Lord knows that he's hardly the only character you've created. What's it like to get these words on a page and then you literally have to put a body and a voice to it?

Brandon Victor Dixon: Every process is different and every process requires lesser or greater building blocks to create the architecture you need within which to breathe life, right? There's a certain level of architecture you need to create that is the character, and then there's the space you have to fill it with, which is you. And sometimes that requires more and sometimes that requires less, depending on what kind of project it is and depending on how the project is built. Davis is actually largely built on me and my interactions with Shoshana and my interactions with Malia. So, just like the show, the characters are loosely based on Alicia's life. The character and the circumstances of Davis are loosely based on her life, and so there are some foundational elements there. But for the most part, where we found Davis was in the room between our interactions as performers.

Jo Reed: And Malia plays Ally.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes. The wonderfully talented Malia plays Ally.

Jo Reed: Do you like to go off book early and get up on your feet? What's your comfort level in a rehearsal process?

Brandon Victor Dixon: My general process is to go to rehearsal with script pages in hand before I start to move off the page. Different people are different. Some people will show up day one completely memorized and things like that, and I'm not like that. But by the time we have rehearsed the scene for a second individual session, then after that is when I start to move off book. But I don't feel pressure to be off book at any particular point in time. Yeah, I don't.

Jo Reed: You had this opened at the Public Theater, so shout out to the public. Tell me about that opening night. I mean, the excitement must have been extraordinary.

Brandon Victor Dixon: I think so. The public's been developing the show for a long time and Alicia is one of those artists who really has a very broad appeal, very genuinely global appeal. So people have really been excited at the kinds of work that she's done over the years and so when she moved into this space and when it came to the Public, which is definitely known for bringing fantastic work to the city the buzz really built in a very positive way for the show and I think the very honest story that we have to tell and the emotional pull and the emotional narrative that Alicia's music naturally possesses, I think just creates a formula that people find compelling. And so we had been in previews for a couple of weeks before we opened and by the time we opened we had pretty much sold out, actually, and so the energy and the excitement was definitely there and it was wonderful to at long last officially open the show to public viewing.

Jo Reed: How do you keep a performance fresh for eight shows a week?

Brandon Victor Dixon: Well, you can go off the natural drive of the artistic material for a while, depending on what it is. And then a lot of it has to become a reliance on your fellow performers playing with one another and keeping things alive with one another. But also and actually I spoke to this point to the group the other day, you also have to really decide what it is you are doing through the vehicle of the play. The play is about something, it's about something to the writers. Is it about those exact same elements for you? Is it about something else? What is the lesson you are trying to communicate to the audience through the vehicle of the play? And once you determine that, then it can make it easier to use the same tool to communicate a message to a different group of people. That when the tool does not become stale, the tool is just the tool, and the meeting is what is new, the meeting and the group. The opportunity to share is what is new, and that is where you live.

Jo Reed: “Hell's Kitchen” is moving to Broadway, and I know this is really early, but I wonder what you think will shift as it makes that transition. Obviously, it'll get bigger because the theater is going to be bigger, the stage will be bigger.

Brandon Victor Dixon: I think it will get stronger. We've had the experience now of exposing the play to the audience. And you work as a creative group internally and you live with the material, you're in the material and sometimes that can you can kind of almost get lost in the material. So then sharing it with audiences is a great opportunity to get you to take a step back out and to look at where there are places where you can strengthen your show. And so I think our show will get stronger.

Jo Reed: I wonder what inspired you originally to go after a career in acting and singing?  Andwhat was the attraction to musicals?

Brandon Victor Dixon: I think there is a just an innate compulsion in me. I've known since from a very young age that this was the environment that I wanted to live in. This was a career I wanted to pursue, and fortunately, I was in an educational environment that understood the crucial importance of an arts education. So I had a music class every day. I had a music teacher who put on three musicals a year in the school.  I became very familiar with the American musical, and also through that became very drawn to the great Julie Andrews. And I think that's where my foundation, my love of musicals began and my greatest artistic inspiration is Michael Jackson, -- the diverse level of his artistry, the height of it, the storytelling through song, dance, theater, film. Those are really what got me into it. Again, like I said, fortunately, my educational environment fostered it in a strong and compelling way.

Jo Reed: You went to Columbia University. Did you study theater there?

Brandon Victor Dixon: I did. I did eventually. I mean, initially I was a split major. I was in econ with a film concentration. But all the while I was taking classes in the theater department and performing in productions on campus and auditioning for professional shows in the city while I was going to class. So I was studying other things, but I was continuing to develop my education in performing arts.

Jo Reed: And right out of college, right out of Columbia, you played Simba in the national tour of “The Lion King.”

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes.

Jo Reed: Was that really your first big professional experience?

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes, it absolutely was. I mean, on a technical level, no, because I booked “The Lion King”, which began in February 2003. But right after I booked “The Lion King,” I also booked an engagement at City Center Encores in the city, which was in the fall of 2002. So I debuted at City Center in “House of Flowers”, and then I left and joined “The Lion King.”

Jo Reed: What was that experience like of playing such an important role in a national tour as you're going across the country?

Brandon Victor Dixon: It was harrowing.

Jo Reed: I bet.

Brandon Victor Dixon: I had always been a very natural performer. It was something I did with a great ease and love. But when I was doing The Lion King, I had vocal challenges, particularly with the big song that Simba sings, “Endless Night.”  Throughout the audition process my success through the song was really about 50-50. Sometimes I would sing it cleanly and sometimes I would crack and break throughout the end of the song. So I booked the job and I was grateful for that. But I did not have much confidence in my ability to do this thing that I had done with such ease before for one or two weekends, that now I had to do every single day for my job. And so it was a very challenging experience for me.

Jo Reed: You created the role of Eubie Blake in “Shuffle Along,” and my God, what a cast that was. Audra McDonald, Brian Stokes Mitchell, Billy Porter. Just tell me a little bit about that experience.

Brandon Victor Dixon: That was a wonderful experience. I've been blessed to be a part of a few masterpieces in my life and “Shuffle Along” is definitely one of them, and made all the more special because of the cast. Audra McDonald and Brian Stokes Mitchell in particular. Brian Stokes Mitchell is my theatrical idol and the first show I saw, Broadway show I saw in New York City, was “Ragtime”. And so I saw Brian and Audra in that. So it was really a full circle dream come true moment to be in that in that show with them and Billy and Joshua Henry and that whole wonderful cast.

Jo Reed: You were also in “Motown the Musical” playing Berry Gordy, so Eubie Blake, Berry Gordy. What's the challenges of creating a role based on a real person? In the case of somebody like Gordy, one we think we know.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yeah, I think that they're all different. On one hand, there's a real benefit because it was a real person. There's a volume of information about what they did and how they felt. A lot of times there are autobiographies.  So there are places to gather a lot of information about people. But the trick with some of them, the blessing,( laugh) the trick, but the blessing. But also the trick is that if they're alive, then you can study them, obviously, but there's just the added pressure of presenting them in front of them, in front of themselves. But I have I've had the opportunity to play real life figures a number of times, and it's something that I enjoy doing. 

Jo Reed: Aaron Burr in “Hamilton”. That had to have been both challenging and so rewarding, and I'd love to have you describe the difference between creating a role from scratch and picking up a role after a performer like Leslie Odom Jr. leaves it.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Picking it up from scratch is unique because it's all your kind of ideas and instincts and it's a path you craft all your own. Following in someone's footsteps is an interesting thing. I think the initial fear is always that how will you find a way to make it your own, but I found very quickly with “Hamilton,” I found myself finding my own path rather quickly. Obviously, not every step I covered was my own, I made sure to steal all of Leslie's great stuff. But I found very quickly that because of the richness of the material, my creative brain began to take it in a variety of directions. I found that through the course of playing it over a year, I found myself able to play Burr in a variety of ways and still make the play work and make the character come to life. So I really enjoyed that.

Jo Reed: “Hamilton” was such a huge hit. I mean, it still is. Did you have to deal in some ways with audience expectations when you walked out on that stage? I'm just so curious about what the relationship is like between a performer and an audience, and especially in something like “Hamilton,” which is such a big play also in a big Broadway theater. I would imagine it's very different in the Public Theater, which is smaller and much more intimate. So it's a different kind of relationship you would have with the audience, I would think.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes. Different theaters and different plays create different kinds of relationships with the audience. “Hamilton”, I will say as far as expectation, the only level of awareness I really had of that was based on the fact that people had such a love for the material that they knew it so well. And so I was very aware of the fact that the moment I made a mistake, I would be exposed and ridiculed online. And so in order to combat that, whenever I would make a mistake, I would immediately go online first in a segment on Instagram that I entitled “Burr's Corner”, which is named after Winnie the Pooh's Corner, Pooh's Corner. And I would tell the world what I was supposed to say and what I actually said. That is how I addressed audience expectations.

Jo Reed: You also played Judas in the live, underscore live, TV production of “Jesus Christ Superstar”. What were the key moments of that and the challenges of performing something live on national television or international, it probably was international, wasn't it?

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes, it definitely is an international project. I think the key moments of that were really figuring out how to merge the live theater elements with the live television technical elements in the space. We rehearsed very much like a Broadway production in the rehearsal space. But once we moved into our set we really had to merge the theater and the technical elements and that was the process that I found the most interesting about that project.

Jo Reed: What about vocal preparation associated with songs in there like “Heaven on Their Minds,” which is just has this range that's kind of crazy. 

Brandon Victor Dixon: Well, fortunately, I was familiar with “Heaven on Their Minds”. I discovered it in high school. So I had it in my back pocket for a while. In fact, there are one or two times I would go to an audition just to just to sing it. So fortunately, I had that. And these days, that kind of high octane high note singing is something that is required of us aspiring leading men. But once I got the job I was very conscious of building up vocal stamina over the course of the rehearsal process so that when we filmed I was in a strong and healthy place.

Jo Reed: I wonder how your approach to acting shifts between your work on stage and your work in television. There's obviously “Jesus Christ Superstar”, but you were also in the TV series “Power”. How does it shift?

Brandon Victor Dixon: A lot of the elements are the same, the foundational elements are the same in preparation of trying to understand the script and character and story and then the mechanics of how the show work, whether it's a theatrical show or a television show, the mechanics and structure of how the show is set up. And then from there the difference in television is because it changes every two weeks per episode. There's a kind of a different level of memorization, of practical application, and also kind of like individual rehearsal practice, because you have to show up on set prepared to do a thing that you haven't had weeks to rehearse and prepare, which is what you get to do in theater.

Jo Reed: I would also think in television, there's so much waiting around.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Oh, yes, there's definitely a lot of waiting around. It's difficult to immerse yourself in a process in television. So your individual process as an actor really has to develop.

Jo Reed: You've also made your mark, and a very prominent one, as a producer. What made you decide you wanted to move into that aspect of theater?

Brandon Victor Dixon: It was a pretty natural evolution. You start out as a performer wanting to get mastery over your lines and your musical notes and then you want mastery over your scene and then over the act, over the play. And the more you look, you seek to understand how to communicate your message to the audience, the more concerned you become with the tools that are involved in that. All right, well, "I want to walk over here and I want the lights to look like this and I wanted to do that," and it's like, "Well, why can't we do that? Why can't we do that? Or who's in charge of that?" And so naturally, you expand outward and outward further and further as you get to the point of, all right, well, it's the producer who gets to make these decisions. So that is the position you want to seek. And additionally, you put a certain level of creative input and energy into a production and you want to be able to benefit financially off of that even after you left the stage. And so that's a lot of where that development comes from.

Jo Reed: You are a Tony Award winning producer for “Hedwig and the Angry Inch”. What drew you to that show, talk about your vision for that production and how that manifested.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Well, the vision for the production really belongs to David Fincher, who's the lead producer on the project. But I was familiar with the property, and I knew that it had never made it to Broadway, but it had a very big audience and I thought that the casting was spectacular. And so I thought it had a real shot of being a fantastic production and I'm glad we were able to be a part of it.

Jo Reed: I wonder if that experience influenced subsequent career decisions that you've made, or ways that you think about theater more now that you've been deeply involved in this other aspect of it.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Oh, absolutely. Expanding my participation in different aspects of the business has definitely diversified my understanding of the kinds of things I want to be involved in, the kinds of partners with whom I want to be involved. The impact of work, and so it's definitely had an impact on how I look at myself as a creative artist.

Jo Reed: You're in “Hell's Kitchen” at the Public Theater, but you're gearing up for “Here for the Holidays”, a concert at Ginny's Supper Club in Harlem on December 18th. What's the backstory, how did this come to be?

Brandon Victor Dixon: Oh, well, so the Classic Theater of Harlem, it is their holiday benefit concert, and one of the directors of the Classic Theater is a colleague of mine, Ty Jones. We've known each other kind of throughout the New York theater scene in general, but also Ty starred on “Power” with me. And since we've done this show, we've kept in close contact and we did some work earlier in the year, did some work earlier in the year with the Classic Theater of Harlem and Ty asked me if I wanted to join them for their holiday benefit, which is being hosted by Ethan Hawke. And I was happy to do so, so December 18th, we will be at Ginny's Supper Club toasting the Classic Theater of Harlem.

Jo Reed: Putting a concert together is like telling a story, so I'm curious, what story are you looking to tell with “Here for the Holidays”?

Brandon Victor Dixon: The story I'm looking to tell with :Here for the Holidays” is the story of fighting to be present despite the present moment, maybe not meeting your expectations. Not letting the disappointment in your expectations block you from the blessings of the present. In efforts to do that, we are all going to work to be here for the holidays.

Jo Reed: You are doing this while you're doing eight shows a week.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes, ma'am.

Jo Reed: And you're taking the time to talk to me now, so double appreciation there. You're also a political advocate, you're co-founder of the We Are Foundation. Can you tell me about the work of the foundation?

Brandon Victor Dixon: Well the foundation was founded to use the power of art to bridge the gaps between communities. A large part of our initial work was working to kind of connect people to the power of the vote. So voter education, local voter education, and education amongst school programs and arts education programs to communicate to people the intersection between politics and art and activism. And that's largely, we've worked in areas like Miami, Jacksonville, Detroit, and D.C. Working to kind of spread that message and communicate that in conjunction with other organizations and programs.

Jo Reed: Every actor, every performer faces challenging moments throughout their career and I'm wondering if you can share one of those moments, and how you met that moment.

Brandon Victor Dixon: Yes. As I stated before, “The Lion King” was my first job and it is to date the most challenging professional experience, because I had vocal challenges. And so when I went out to do the job, because my audition process was chancy, was spotty, I was excited that I got the job, but I lacked confidence. I was anxious at my ability to replicate my performance on a regular basis, and that anxiety made me tight and constricted my voice and really had me sounding vocally poor throughout the rehearsal process, which was very embarrassing. It was a very public process. They got me a voice teacher, which I was embarrassed by, and eventually they thought the challenges were so bad that they thought they should transpose the song “Endless Night” down a half step, which I was ashamed of, though they assured me that was not the first time they had done it and they actually were currently on Broadway performing the song down a half step. But they wanted me to kind of stop worrying about the song so that I didn't worry about my performance. And they were correct, it did help me. We opened the show and I felt good.  But then they returned three months later, the creative team, and they said we think you sound great. We think we'd like to move the song back up into the original key. And one thing I had discovered in their absence is that when I would work with the voice teacher, sometimes he would forget to play the song in the lower key. He would play it in the higher key and I would sing the song with great ease. So we recognized that it was not a vocal issue I was having, but a mental issue. And so when the creative team came back and said they wanted to move the song back up, I told them to do it, but they could not tell me when they were going to do it. So obviously each night that week, I thought the song was higher, but they moved it up on a Thursday night and I sang the song successfully, and I never had a problem since and backstage, the whole cast gave a huge cheer for me in celebration of my triumph, and I am always deeply forever grateful to them for their support for me during those trying times.

Jo Reed: What do you love about theater?

Brandon Victor Dixon: I love the community, co-operational element of theater, and I love the inspirational, aspirational element of theater. I think those are those are the things. Art is the most exponentially transformative tool that we have as a culture and a community, and I think theater is an ultimate synthesis of those elements.

Jo Reed: Brandon, thank you so much. Thank you for giving me your time and thank you for your extraordinary work.

Brandon Victor Dixon: You're quite welcome. I appreciate it.

Jo Reed: That was actor, singer and producer Brandon Victor Dixon. Many thanks to the Public Theater for the excerpt from “Not Even the King.” “Hell’s Kitchen” is running at the Public Theater until January 14 and will move to Broadway in the Spring. Brandon’s benefit concert for the Classical Theater of Harlem takes place on December 18.  We’ll have links to the Public Theater, the Classical Theater of Harlem, and Brandon’s not-for-profit WeAre Foundation in our show notes. You’ve been listening to Art Works, produced at the National Endowment for the arts. Follow us where ever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating on apple. I’m Josephine Reed thanks for listening

Brandon Victor Dixon: I love the community, cooperational element of theater, and I love the inspirational, aspirational element of theater. I think those are those are the things, art is the most exponentially transformative tool that we have as a culture and a community, and I think theater is an ultimate synthesis of those elements.