Music Credits: “Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad” traditional, performed by Carolina Chocolate Drops & Joe Thompson from the cd, Carolina Chocolate Drops & Joe Thompson.

“The Angels Laid Him Away” written and performed by Rhiannon Giddens from the cd, Freedom Highway.

“Trouble in your Mind,” traditional, performed by Carolina Chocolate Drops from the cd, Genuine Negro Jig.

 “NY” composed and performed by Kosta T from the cd Soul Sand, used courtesy of the Free Music Archive.

Rhiannon Giddens: I started dancing at this local concerts and squares, and the bands were old-time bands, and I was like what is this, like I heard bluegrass but the old-time banjo is totally something different and it's much more connected for me to like the African sounds, the African diasporic sounds  that would have come from the original banjo which is an African-American-Caribbean invention, and I didn't know it at the time but I was just so connected to that beat and that sound and then I just wanted to play it.

Jo Reed: That is singer/songwriter/multi-instrumentalist and the artistic director of Silkroad, Rhiannon Giddens, and this is Art Works, the weekly podcast from the National Endowment for the Arts, I’m Josephine Reed.  As we celebrate Women’s History Month this March, the National Endowment for the Arts is shining a light on some phenomenal women—past and present-- through the agency’s blog, podcast, and social media channels.   We’re celebrating women who, to borrow from Maya Angelou’s famous poem “Phenomenal Woman” have “fire in their eyes and joy in their feet.” and which is kind of a perfect description of Rhiannon Giddens.

A classically-trained singer, MacArthur Fellow, banjo and fiddle-player and composer, Rhiannon excavates the past to bring forgotten stories and music forward. A daughter of North Carolina, her music is a reflection of and has roots in her multi-racial background. 

 

Rhiannon is co-founder of the Grammy-winning Carolina Chocolate Drops, which insisted reclaiming  a central and historically-accurate place for black musicians in old-time music. Rhiannon then went on to create solo albums of haunting beauty and power that mined African-Americans past and present. Always searching, Her most recent album with musician Francisco Turrisi ranges from bluegrass to gospel to traditional Italian songs.  She is an artist determined to be of service and put her wide knowledge of different musical traditions to good use.

 

Given that Silk road was begun by YoYo Ma in 2000 as both a touring ensemble of world-class musicians from all over the globe, and a social impact organization working to make a positive impact across borders through the arts, it was perhaps not so surprising that in July, Rhiannon Giddens was named to be its artistic director.  I spoke with Rhiannon Giddens recently and asked her what attracted her to this new role with Silkroad.

 

Rhiannon Giddens: A lot of things I think. Firstly, I am, I don't know, I'm a new thing kind of person. I'm always interested in how to do things that I don't know how to do, and if I feel like they are close enough to what I already do I will try it, and if I think it makes sense for me and if I can learn and then, of course, most importantly if I can offer something up for that role. I don't want to do something just for the sake of doing it because that's not really respectful. But this came at a time where I had been performing a lot and traveling a lot and was a little bit burned out, a little bit just because of the intense nature of the work that I do and the music that I sing and the historical connection and all of that, and also the other thing that kind of made me think twice about it rather than just kind of going, oh, no way, was my partnership with Francesco Turrisi who we had been, you know we'd made a record together and we'd been doing things, and he has kind of connected my music to the rest of the world for me. So I had been doing such a deep dive in American history and American cultural music, and then he comes from the Mediterranean and thinking about you know his questions of why don't we talk more about how like North Africa and the Middle East really influence so much of the European art, and there's all these reasons, and so I was just kind of realizing there's such a larger picture, which I always knew but it really kind of brought it home to me, you can't actually finish this story without looking at what came before and what was happening in the rest of the world. So through I've been learning about lots of instruments and types of music that I would have never known anything about. So it gave me a little bit of confidence, like, look, I have so much to learn about the group, about all the instruments, about the music. I have a lot to learn, but I think that's a strength to know when you have a lot to learn and what you have to offer and when you need to learn more, and they always go hand in hand, you know? But knowing him and having experimented and learned a lot about like maqams and frame drums and things like this that were outside of my realm kind of gave me a little bit of confidence to go, okay, well, at least I have a little bit more of a basis to take this job, like I think if the offer had come like two or three years prior I would have had to say no because I don't feel, I wouldn't have, at that point, had the right perspective. But I feel like at this point I have just enough knowledge to know what I need to know and to be open to learning. But I also have a very particular point of view which can be really useful for where the organization is after 20 years of being in existence. That's a point usually, you know whether in marriages or in organizations you reach a point where you've been a certain thing for a while and then you have to make a decision, do we continue doing this certain thing, do we go our separate ways, do we do a different thing but together. It's a natural thing for any kind of long-standing organization, especially a group of artists. So just all of the sort of different pieces of it seemed to say this is a good idea, and I have the people around me who can help me with the stuff that I don't know. Because I don't think everybody needs to know everything, I think you have to have the group around you that can kind of fill in the blanks and so that you're each kind of doing what you're best at, and I thought I could bring a perspective. That's a long answer to a short question.

Jo Reed: Your own musical background is wide and its deep, and did you grow up in a musical family? It almost seems like it was fed to you with mother's milk.

Rhiannon Giddens: Well, in some ways yes and in some ways no, so I'm an interesting mix I think. I'm fortunate because I did sing a lot with my family, my dad in particular, like we just sang all the time. We would just sing wordless melodies, and he was a classically trained singer that ends up going into a different industry for various reasons that I won't get into here. But he was just an amazing singer and guitar player, and so I was always around that and I just was always a singer, like family lore, I'm like singing as soon as I can draw breath basically and never stopped and annoyed my mother to no end because I wouldn't shut up. But I was in a very nurturing environment for my good fortune because like they didn't, my parents didn't push me. My dad didn't see that I was musical and then go, "Oh, let me get her into all of this stuff and teach her how," you know he was just like let me just sing with her and like let's make music, and so that's kind of been at the core of everything, and I didn't have, any formal training I have was in a choir which was great. But then not really knowing, you know not really engaging with it in a really formal sense until college, and so like my sister and I would want to go, you sing at the talent searches, and my mom would be like, no. She just was like there's no need for that right now, and I just think that was the best thing ever because it meant when I got into music I got into it for the love of it, not because I saw it could give me applause or it could give approbation, and so I've always been into it I think for the right reasons for me, and I can't speak for anybody else, but it works for me and the idea of the mission that I've been kind of on for a long time really feeds into that because I wasn't happy until I found that mission, which is why I left opera because I just couldn't reconcile like that I needed a connection to what I was doing deeper than just singing these stories, which is amazing, I love opera. I mean, I loved it, I love singing, I miss it to this day. In some ways that was where I was the happiest in terms of not having to think about anything but just I'm singing this thing, you know singing the most beautiful notes I could possibly sing and emotionally and blah, blah, blah, and there's not much about my life now that is like that. So there's so much head stuff going on, but I think that that's kind of informed everything. So I didn't have specific like cultural, I mean I had cultural touchstones because I was born and raised in the South, but I've brought that whole idea to everything, whether it's Celtic music, Scots Gaelic or old-time music or opera when I came back to it, writing it now and all that kind of stuff, I think, you know and again that sits really squarely with what Silkroad is trying to do, so it's really using the beauty of art and the emotional ties that art creates with a listener or a watcher, it could be dance, and then using that as a way to better the world, and so even from that point of view it was a great fit, even if you don't think of anything else, like I was like, oh, wow, this is a way that I can do this thing that I've been obsessed with, i.e., like doing that exact thing but on a bigger platform than I have on my own, so it's a I'm joining the family, which is lovely, it's a really wonderful feeling.

Jo Reed: Okay, you studied classical voice at Oberlin and then when you came back you stepped out of that world, that doesn't surprise me, but that you hadn't picked up a banjo until then, that surprised me. First, what drew you to the banjo? And, my God, you became very proficient very quickly.

Rhiannon Giddens: Well, I like to say I don't play many notes on the banjo, but the ones that I play I really know what I'm doing with them. I'm not Chris Thile on the banjo, far from it, like I know what I know and I stick to it, but what I know I play it a lot, and I think that that's an interesting approach and one that is not, it's not often honored in the classical world, it's like you've got to do everything with your instrument, and that is one way of making art in a very high fashion, but you know what, you can also be a folk artist that does this thing but like amazingly well and it has this connection to it that sometimes the other doesn't. It's just like it's a give and take and it's a tradeoff sometimes. But that art is not held up to the same kind of loft. It's like I think art music has been taken too high given where a lot of classical music comes from. A lot of classical music is very influenced by vernacular. There used to be much more of an exchange there, and I think that it has just become such a classist thing which is one of the reasons, this is one of the things that I didn't like about opera. I was like why doesn't everybody have access to this, I love these melodies, I love this music, I love these tunes, like why is it so inaccessible to people, why is this so cut off, and anyway so when I didn't play anything, I play a few guitar chords but that was it, and I started dancing, but when I got home I just kind of burned out of classical, I just needed a break, and I got home to North Carolina and I started dancing at this local concerts and squares, and the bands were old-time bands, and I was like what is this, like I heard bluegrass but the old-time banjo is totally something different and it's much more connected for me to like the African sounds, the African diasporic sounds  that would have come from the original banjo which is an African-American-Caribbean invention, and I didn't know it at the time but I was just so connected to that beat and that sound and then I just wanted to play it. So and I didn't play fiddle either, so I picked up of them kind of within a year of each other and just was extremely frustrated, it sounded like crap for a long time. But I was very lucky because I think, and this is an experience that I wish, that I think we all should have at least once every 10 years is that we should learn to do something completely that we don't know how to do and try to get good at it, because it reminds us of what it feels like to suck. Because you kind of get good at something and then that's what you do, right, and we kind of stick to what we are good at because nobody wants to suck because it's not fun, I wasn't looking to be a violinist or a banjoist, I used the music to get to what I wanted which was to play dance music, or to play with Joe Thompson eventually, when I met him, the last African-American practitioner of the old style black fiddle and banjo music, and so you just use the notes that you need in that kind of music. When you're playing dance music you don't try to learn all the notes, and also it's an apprenticeship so you're doing it all by ear, and I'm not recording stuff, I'm just learning in the moment. I mean, recording is important but I almost never listened to them when I made them, it was just really, we just sat and played over and over again and then me and the Chocolate Drops would just play over and over again, and then we would play for kids who tell, you know they immediately tell you if it sucks. We would play for dancers, same thing, they want you to support them, and so that was the beginning of my instrumental career and it has been the best thing ever because it's that sense of service that I think, you know I was just talking to some folks from a conservatory and it's just like the idea of artists being of service I think is really lost, it's not a part of our conservatory training, and an organization like Silkroad, that's exactly what we, I say we now, are doing, is being of service with our music. I'm so into this realizing, you know kind of looking back on my life as one of service as a musician and realizing how much that brought me as a musician. As much as I love standing there singing that high note with all the costume and just the amazing sheer awesomeness of it, doing something with my music as well brings an equally transcendent moment, you know what I mean, feeling like it is serving brings its own kind of joy, and I just think that that is, we need more of that.

Jo Reed: I'm glad you brought up Joe Thompson because he is a National Heritage Fellow.

Rhiannon Giddens: Yes.

Jo Reed: I would love to have talk about your interactions with him because he is such an important figure in American music.

Rhiannon Giddens: We were so lucky, we didn't know then how lucky we were. I think we know now, like me and Dom Flemings and Justin Robinson, the original Carolina Chocolate Drops, we started going down to meet Joe, Joe was 86 at that time, and he'd had a stroke but he'd kind of recovered enough to be able to play, which was amazing, and the white community around Mebane, which is where he lived, you know the white old-time community, had been really active in keeping him playing because he wouldn't play by himself, and this is a really integral part of the kind of music that he came from, he wouldn't play without a banjo player, which is one of the reasons why I ended up playing banjo in the band because I was the only one who could, so I said, well, I'm sticking with the banjo and filling the slot that needs to be filled, and I'm really grateful for that because I learned everything that I know. Well, not everything, of course, we all have multiple teachers, but the core of how I played banjo comes from playing with Joe Thompson, and he was an amazing, gentle, you know I think he was aware of the importance of his music but not enough to be too stressed about it. I don't know, I just think he knew his job was to teach and so he taught anybody who wanted to come by, and by teaching he played with them, and he was a really open person, and we got him for a handful of years which was really amazing, like a couple of those years were really intensely learning from him and playing with him and playing with him in public, and then when John Jeremiah Sullivan's article came out connecting Joe Thompson to Frank Johnson who was a black string band musician, he was a fiddler who had bought himself out of slavery with his fiddle, and bought his family out of slavery, and formed this string band which was famous all over the South, so famous that they actually started calling the music he played Frank Johnson music, like he was hugely influential, right, and so when Sullivan connected him to Joe Thompson it was like, I can't even explain how big of a deal that was to me. In African-American history it's so difficult to get names and connections because of the nature of enslavement, because of the nature of being discarded, and most people, it's very hard for them to trace back over the ocean, you know a lot of people have a hard time getting specific names for their family tree. That didn't matter so much to me, this did. I actually have a musical lineage that has a name at the end of it, which was really incredible, and it was like I was, you know we realized, okay, we were like this is really great, we were able to do this with a living member of the African-American community, this music which was almost dead in our culture, and then however many years later it was like another wave of, oh, my gosh, like we almost missed that. He was 86, you know we almost missed that, and it almost kind of freaks you out because you're just like, oh, because it's such an important thing, and so it really does inform so much of how I look at music and how I look at the world really, is having that experience.

Jo Reed: Well, some of the songs you sing, you unearth, and, in fact, I know you've worked with Sheila Kay Adams who is another National Heritage Fellow, and then others you write yourself, and you've been inspired to song by narratives of enslaved people, bringing that past into the present, and it reminds me of Tracy K. Smith and her collection of poetry "Wade in the Water," one of those longer poems, she's just using excerpts from letters of formerly enslaved people, and I see you two doing very similar work in that regard. Talk about the importance of that, of filling that story out.

Rhiannon Giddens: I just, I think the more that we can listen to the voices, I mean, it's important to listen to the analytics and the analyzers and the people who contextualize things, I mean, they have been my saviors. I've read so many incredible books by so many amazing academics who've done all that leg work that I don't have to do, and that's important to set the scene, but when it comes to the emotional heart of it, it has to be from the voices. There are a lot of different ways of going at it. There is looking at the voices of enslaved people, which always has to be taken with a really big grain of salt because of the different levels that the meaning has to fight through because a lot of the people in the WPA, the narratives project, were very old when they were talked to. They were talking to white people, white people were sometimes writing them in dialect even if they weren't talking in dialects, white people were asking leading questions, and it's not to say that that work wasn't good work, it was, but it was work of the time. So we have to remember that there's still a code that's happening in a lot of these narratives, so I always try to keep that in mind, and the other thing is that it's not always just their voices. For me, I also get a lot from reading letters written by enslavers, written one enslaver to another, don't forget, here's some tips to keep your poor whites angry at the black people and vice versa, don't forget, you've got to keep the crackers and the, you know what I mean, like they were just really super clear, like they were so clear why can't we be clear, and that's kind of the line I take, and there's also the voices of people who write runaway ads, people who write slave advertisements, those are also important voices, they're tough voices because they're voices of the oppressor, but they still can uncover things that have an emotional veracity to them. So for me the primary sources, even if within a book, their voices come clear. Now, what it means and the layers and the coding and all that stuff, that's a whole other ball of wax, and that's where the contextualism really does come in handy because the more that you read about the time around when these people were living I think the more that you can intuit some of the things that are coming from their words, or understand why they would say this or that, at least as much as you can coming as a 20th-century born person, and living in comparative luxury to any of these people. So that in and of itself is a barrier that I'm very open about. It's like I can only tell the story as I can feel it from these words, but it's imperative to me to go as far as I can to those people, which we have words, we have sometimes oral traditions, oral histories that were written down, those are amazing too, and so that's just kind of how I look at it.

Jo Reed: Yeah, well, it's teaching history through song, it's singing history, and I don't mean it'd didactic at all. But there is so much that music is capable of because it opens the heart as well as the head, and you're not being talked at but at the same time you're forced to recognize the partiality of history as it has been taught.

Rhiannon Giddens: Yeah, and I think that there is, it's a team effort. I always kind of look at myself as the performing arts arm of the historian society because it takes so much to get this knowledge to light. But like a musician has an ability sometimes to take a three-minute song and that person who is never going to read that book can get the gist of something really important from that book after listening to that three-minute song, and I think that's where I come in, and it has felt like a service, it has felt like a call to action, like I just feel like it is a calling for me. These songs, I don't know where they'll be in 50 years, I don't really care. I feel like if they're doing their job right now that's all that matters, and if I'm representing, because I listen to voices or read voices but I also try to represent the voices in a way that feels right, so to try to get out of the way as much as I can to allow the song to be what the song needs to be.

Jo Reed: You've written an opera called "Omar," which also has its historical traces. Tell me the story and how it came to you.

Rhiannon Giddens: Well, the amazing folks at the Spoleto Festival in South Carolina, Spoleto USA, they decided they had never commissioned an opera before and they decided they wanted to tell the story of Omar Ibn Said who was a Senegalese Koranic scholar who was stolen and sold into slavery and ended up first in Charleston and then ran away from his enslaver in Charleston and ended up in North Carolina, and he ended up a slave for 50 years and he wrote his autobiography in Arabic, which is an amazing feat considering that as soon as he stepped foot in America like he no longer could speak any of the languages that he spoke with people. He couldn't speak Arabic, which wouldn't have been his first language, you have to read the Koran in Arabic, right, so he learned it, but he would have been very proficient in it. You know couldn't speak any of his native languages, and to be able to retain, the Arabic and the Koranic verses, like he could quote huge swaths until he died, just shows an amazing force of will, and he's just a really incredible person, and what he said with his writings and how he walked that line, living in a Christian, not only enslaved but also enslaved by Christians and so how did he keep his faith and all of these questions were very interesting to me. I'd never heard the story, I mean, despite being born and raised in North Carolina I'd never heard of Omar, which made me mad all over again. Every time this happens I'm just like, what, why is somebody else telling me my own history, this is terrible, and so I wrote the libretto and I partnered with Michael Ables who is an incredible composer, and he writes film scores, he does classical composition, he's just an all around amazing guy, and I said would you write this with me because I can come up with the thematic material but I don't know the orchestra, I don't know dots, it's going to take 14 years, and I just loved what he did with the soundtrack to "Get Out" which is that amazing Jordan Peele movie.

Jo Reed: Yes.

Rhiannon Giddens: Right? And I was just like, oh, my God.

Jo Reed: That was some scary music.

Rhiannon Giddens: Yeah, he's incredible, and what he has done with what I send him is just stunning. Basically the whole orchestra is a banjo, like I've written most of the, a lot of the music on the banjo, and it's a mixture of folkloric kind of stuff and classical, you know because I was classically trained so I go into that when the spirit hits, but it's just a real, the patchwork of who I am, and he has really made it come to life, and he has added his own pieces to it, but he's made it come to life and in just a stunning way, and I think it's a really good example of fusion, of classical folk fusion, I think it's a real example. I think there's been attempts, and I'm sure there are real examples that I just haven't heard, but for me it feels like this is really two worlds meeting at their peak and then combining to, you know this is not an arrangement of a folk song, it really is something new, it's a real coming together, and I just have never heard anything like it, so I'm excited.  I've done as much as I can as a composer, I'm not a writer, I'm not writing a history of enslaved Koranic scholars. So I kind of had to draw a line and go, okay, I can do as much as I can but ultimately I have to write a good opera that's telling the story of my Omar, this is not the Omar because he's gone, all we have is his words that he left behind, and, again, multiple layers, who is he talking to, who does he, you know who knows who is reading his story. So even within that he's very strong in what he's saying so I would love to like know what he would have said without having those layers laid upon his work, but, yeah, it has been a real privilege to work on that.

Jo Reed: I'm curious about how you're going to take some of your life's work which has been a musical historical excavation and bring it to the Silkroad.

Rhiannon Giddens: Well, and, again, this is where Francesco comes back in, the idea of American music as immigrant music, that's really where it begins because the work that I've done it's just over and over and over and over again, it's like this comes from here, this comes from here, there's nothing in America other than indigenous music, which is a whole story of its own, how it has been erased and overlooked and forgotten, I mean, indigenous people are still around, agriculture is still happening. Other than that everything has been brought, right, so whether by force or by choice, or by forced choice depending on where you're coming from. So the fact that anybody could look at American music, because this continued up until the current day, like it's not like this happened in 1705 then that was it, it just kind of went from there and has been American music ever since then, that's just not true. There's been wave after wave after wave, and every wave makes this huge change, and at the core of all of it is this sort of black, white working class cultural exchange that has generated so much of what's going on. So there's all this going on and I'm like so all we need to do really is to connect that to what Silkroad has been doing. For me it's not hard because you have people of all those populations that are represented by what Silkroad has been doing in America, like so how has it affected American music, how could we put American music back within the context of global music, and so I just think one of the projects that came to my mind immediately is talking about the railroad, particularly because you have an interesting combination of a lot of Chinese laborers, which, of course, Chinese music has been a huge part of Silkroad music and history, and then you have African-American laborers, you have Irish laborers, you have other European immigrant populations, and you have all of this stuff going on to build a capitalist kind of connector, right? So this railroad is not for people to get from point A to point B, it's for goods to get from point A to point B. So it's like the best and the worst of America, there's a lot of the worst of America in the railroads when you consider how the workers were treated, which was awful, how you consider the land that they went through and stole, like Native lands, to connect the East to the West, what runaway economic progress does, who does it benefit, who does it take from, who dies to make it happen, these are the things that we are going to explore with that project. It's like basically bringing Silkroad into America, it's like we have a lot of the same things that were going on along that route and that's been explored in certain ways for 20 years and it's beautiful, and we'll continue to explore that, but I think it's important to, a lot of the people in Silkroad ensemble live in the States, I just think it's a really I think great opportunity to expose the world within America by using that historical event and the people who are involved in that as a jumping off point for creating art, for creating discussion, for that kind of thing. So that's pretty much the first idea that I have had that we're now building into a multi-year kind of really big project because there's a lot that can be done with it that's coming from my specific perspective to Silkroad. 

Jo Reed: That’s wonderful, and the impact of COVID on planning…

Rhiannon Giddens: It's interesting actually, it's been difficult but it's also been, you know Silkroad was in kind of a bit of flux, like I said, any organization that's been around for a long time, and then also there's a transition of the original founder, so Yo-Yo Ma had stepped down, and there's this idea of recommitting to what Silkroad already is, but then also going, well, what is Silkroad right now, what's Silkroad of 2020. We know what Silkroad of 2000 was; 2005, 2010 maybe we weren't sure; 2015, I don't know. But in 2020 it's like everything has stopped, this transition has happened, Yo-Yo stepped down, there was an interim Artistic Director model that was dissolved, and then I stepped in as the sole Artistic Director, and so this is the moment where there's a reckoning that can happen within any organization, you go, okay, so who are we now, what do we want to say, how is it structured, everything is stopped anyway so let's take this opportunity to shore up the things we want to shore up, to change whatever, and really kind of be the organization that we want to be for now and make the work that we do count even more, more efficient, all of that kind of stuff that every organization should do, and so we've had an opportunity to do that in a way that wasn't actually as painful as it would have been if we'd had to do that while also keeping everything going, and so everybody is in their houses, we're all available for Zooms, and we're able to, so for me it's kind of like it's a little sad because I haven't met 95 percent of the people that I talk to in person yet, so I'm meeting everybody over a screen, which is tough, but on the other hand it has given us an opportunity to really investigate these things and to kind of come together in a way that's been really beautiful. I just think we're in a really good spot to start making stuff as Silkroad 2021.

Jo Reed: And I think that's a great place to leave it, Rhiannon. Thank you so much for giving me your time, I really appreciate it.

Rhiannon Giddens: You're welcome

Jo Reed: That was singer/songwriter/multi-instrumentalist and the artistic director of Silkroad, Rhiannon Giddens. You can learn more about Silkroad at silkroad.org.  and keep up with the phenomenal women we’re highlighting this month at arts.gov. Just follow us on twitter @neaarts.  This has been Art Works produced by the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed. Stay safe and thanks for listening.

Music Credits:

By My Side” and “Exactly Where You Are” written and performed by Crys Matthews

Crys Matthews: Alright, you ready?

Jo Reed: I’m ready.

Crys Matthews: Alright!

<Matthews sings “By My Side”>

Jo Reed: That’s singer/ songwriter Crys Matthews and this is Art Works the weekly podcast produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed.

I first heard of Crys Matthews when I was putting together an online story about the NEA Regional Touring Program for NEA Arts. The NEA Regional Touring Program is where the NEA partners with the six regional arts organizations to bring access to diverse and excellent performing arts to all Americans—particularly those in underserved communities. Anyway, Crys Matthews was one the artists who’s participated in the program and after I heard her music, I knew I wanted to speak with her. Her music is multi-faceted—sometimes, Americana, sometimes folk, it can have undercurrents of blues, bluegrass, funk and country soul. Her lyrics are wide-open, bold and embracing—a lot like her performances.

And people are taking notice—in 2017, Crys Matthews was the grand prize winner in NewSong Music and Performance Competition, she’s performed (twice) at the Sundance Film Festival’s ASCAP Music Café and she was showcased at the 2018 Northeast Regional Folk Alliance. And never doing things by halves, Crys simultaneously released both an EP, Battle Hymn For An Army Of Lovers which tackles social justice issues and she also released a full-length album, The Imagineers, which are songs about love, life, and her dog.

Jo Reed: "By My Side" is one of the songs from The Imagineers.

Crys Matthews: <laughs> Yes, it is.

Jo Reed: So, tell me about the dog you wrote about.

Crys Matthews: So that song is about my dog Juice. Her official name is Olive, but she's such a ham. ‘Juice’ is much more her personality. And she's amazing. I've had her since she was eight weeks old. She's 12 now. And she is just the best little sidekick I could have ever hoped for. She has been with me through some of the most intense moments in my life, and hopefully will be there for a couple of other really big ones. And she's just incredible. She just has so much love in her, day-in and day-out.

Jo Reed: What kind of a dog is it?

Crys Matthews: So, she's a rescue. We think she's like a beagle/boxer mix with a little bit of whippet. She is fast as lightning. She has a similar coloring to a boxer overall, but she has her four little white paws and white tip-tailed, and little wrinkly head like a beagle.

Jo Reed: Yeah, I have a rescue that's a cocker spaniel/basset hound mix.

Crys Matthews: Wow. <laughs>

Jo Reed: She's so funny looking. She really is but of course, I adore her!

Jo Reed: Crys, where were you born and raised?

Crys Matthews: Born and raised in Southeastern, North Carolina, a little tiny town called Richlands, North Carolina, the Town of Perfect Water. Lived in North Carolina my entire life until about ten years ago when I became a resident of Herndon, Virginia.

Jo Reed: And what music did you listen to growing up?

Crys Matthews: Oh, my gosh! Well, my mom's a preacher. So, I listened to a lot of gospel music. But I also listened to a lot of really fantastic soul music. I'm a huge Otis Redding fan. Huge Aretha Franklin fan. All kinds. My iPod is a funny thing. It's got kind of an eclectic mix of everything from like the 1812 Overture to like a tiny bit of Marilyn Manson to Otis and Aretha, it's pretty eclectic. <laughter>

Jo Reed: I would imagine if you're growing up a preacher's kid, you're listening to a lot of music, you know, quite deeply.

Crys Matthews: Yeah.

Jo Reed: And I wonder if that sort of made you understand early on the power that music had.

Crys Matthews: Most definitely, yeah, most definitely. That was always my favorite part of church was the music. Always. And it was just so incredible to see people be so moved by the messages in the songs. In a lot of instances, more so than they were moved by the message from the preacher. And so yeah, I think very early on I was able to see often just how incredibly impactful music could be.

Jo Reed: Was there a moment when you thought, "This is what I want."

Crys Matthews: Yeah, so that is a very serendipitous set of steps. So, in sixth grade, I learned how to play clarinet, and pretty much as soon as I started playing clarinet, I was convinced that the only thing I wanted to do in this world was be a high school band director. And so, I went to school for music education at Appalachian State University, and my roommate my sophomore year was a percussionist, who was also in this band. And so, this one night they needed a fill-in keyboard player for this gig. And so, as a music education major, you have to have pretty good chops in several different instruments. And because growing up in a church, I could play keys fairly well anyway. So, she asked if I could fill in for the gig. I said I could. And she said, "Okay, and we need you to sing one song, too." And I said, "All right, that's fine, I can do it." And so, we played this one gig. It is literally the only gig this band configuration ever played, and it was truly the night that kind of set me along a completely different course with music. It was incredible the feeling of being on that stage and singing and having people respond to the music, and to me singing. And so, I went and wrote my very first song on the keys, because that's what I could play that wasn't a clarinet, and entered it in the campus talent show at App, and won first place <laughter>, and won 500 bucks, which is like a million college dollars. And the rest is history. I kept, you know, just kept writing and trying to get better and better at it. And then eventually I taught myself guitar and started playing songs and writing songs on guitar, and here, ten/eleven years later, gosh, it's been quite a journey. It's been amazing.

Jo Reed: That is amazing! <laughter> So how would you describe your music? Music that you create?

Crys Matthews: So, it's such an interesting combination of genres. A lot of the music now, the social justice music kind of has a very throwback to traditional folk in that sense, that it's telling stories, the music of the people. Folk music has a beautiful history of justice and music, a marriage of those two things. So, some of the things now are feeling a little bit more folky than they used to, but there is a lot of blues influence in there, a lot of Americana. I lived in Boone, North Carolina for 12 years, so there's a nice little hint of bluegrass in there as well.

Jo Reed: I heard that.

Crys Matthews: Oh, yeah! <laughter>

Jo Reed: I definitely heard that.

Crys Matthews: <laughs> For sure. Yeah, when people ask me like, "Well, who do you sound like? Who do you sound like?" I always joke and say, because I get compared to Tracy Chapman, all the time. I just would love to be getting her royalty checks, but that's fine, there's time for that. But I always say, "It's like Tracy Chapman, but just not quite so sad lyrically." So. <laughs>

Jo Reed: Tell me about your band and the people you play with.

Crys Matthews: Yeah, so my band right now consists of Mark Williams, who's also my producer, he produced my last two projects, Battle Hymn for an Army of Lovers, and The Imagineers. He's my lead guitarist as well. Ben Tufts, who is a staple of the D.C. music scene. He must be in 40 different bands. He is such a phenomenal drummer. Graham Drew is my bassist. And then also Wes Lanich, who actually just recently moved to Colorado, is my keyboard player.

Jo Reed: And how do you choose who to play with? That's a big deal!

Crys Matthews: Yeah! It is! Because it's like, who do you want handling your babies day in and day out? You know? Thankfully, Mark has been just such an amazing partner to me in this music endeavor. He understands my music and what it is I hope to do with my music, so beautifully. Ben, I've known for a long time, so he's an easy choice. He always just treats my songs so perfectly, so he just has such a great intuition with what it is I like, and what I want to convey and how I want the music overall to feel. He just is so good at that, and so between Ben and Mark, you know, they are just always so helpful in finding people who are similar. Similar minds, similar spirits, people who will kind of feel the music in a similar way and be able to just kind of organically translate what it is I'm trying to say into music and into melody. So, it's just so great having those two guys in my corner.

Jo Reed: I'm curious about your writing process. Tell me what inspires you.

Crys Matthews: So, I'm horrible at prompt writing. So most of my music is very, very cathartic. It's usually just that, a case of needing to vent about something, and not being always the best, but just talking about it. It's always easier for me to talk with a guitar in my hand and a song. And so more often than not, it's just me trying to get something out that I'm feeling really strongly Anything from love songs and sweet songs about life and growing to the social justice stuff, they all kind of come about the same way. I kind of just have a moment where something I just can't stop thinking about it, or just need to say something or do something, and sometimes the melody comes first, but most of the time, the lyrics come first. And I'm just writing, writing, writing until I feel better. And then usually by the time I look up, the song is pretty much done. So.

Jo Reed: Do you write on the keyboard or with the guitar?

Crys Matthews: I actually write on guitar. Yeah, I haven't gotten to play keys in a long time. So yeah, almost everything now is written on guitar.

Jo Reed: I'm curious, because you're a singer/songwriter, so there's the more interior part of writing, and then tada you got to perform it! Bam there’s an audience. Tell me about performing and how you feel on a stage.

Crys Matthews: You know, it's, for me, I'm not one of those great showman type performers. You know, I'm very, very reserved and internalized when I'm playing. My mom is always like, "You always have your eyes closed. You're always feeling it so deeply, like we can see it so deeply." And for me, the experience of performing, it's always when I get to the very last chord, the very last note of the song, and you can hear just a subtle sigh, or just this quiet like, they just got it. They just got whatever it was I was just trying to say to them. That's the thing for me that I love about the performance. It's not the applause or any of that. It's literally having a conversation with a group of strangers and finding that they get it. That they get what you're trying to say.

Jo Reed: Do you interact with the audience as you're doing--

Crys Matthews: Yeah!

Jo Reed: And tell me how that works for you.

Crys Matthews: Yeah! So, there are a couple of the songs now that have kind of like sing-alongs built into them, which is very, very fun. And so, I get to kind of teach the audience the lyrics ahead of time, and then we get to sing together, and you can hear them get more and more confident throughout the song and start singing louder and louder and louder. And it's just so fun. You know, music is made to be listened to, but some music is made to be shared. And so, it's really fantastic just kind of watching it an audience feel comfortable enough with one another and safe enough with one another to actually sing out and sing with you. You know, and people get so shy about singing sometimes when it's not their chosen profession. But it's a really powerful thing hearing so many people lift their voices with you collectively. It's really great.

Jo Reed: I just love live performance dynamics. And I'm assuming you can feel literally the energy from the audience.

Crys Matthews: Absolutely.

Jo Reed: It's hard to talk about, but can you talk about the way that can actually shape the performance?

Crys Matthews: Absolutely. So, I hate writing setlists. So, I almost always will avoid writing a setlist, until I can get a chance to be in the room. Until I can be in the space. Until I can feel that energy in the room. And almost every time I play, it's shaped by who is going to be in the room that night. If I try to write a setlist, every time I think, "Okay, this is great. I've got it. I've nailed it! This is the setlist. It's going to be this tonight," and I walk onto that stage, and I feel those beings in that room, and every time, it just deviates, like every time, it deviates. I can write a setlist and say, "I'm definitely going to adhere to this," and the energy that the people bring with them, you know, whether they've had-- loss like unexpectedly, some people have had just really great news unexpectedly. You kind of feel bits of that. You know, on the one hand it sounds very what I like to call just very ‘hippy-esque’, but on the other hand, it's very ‘science-y’, it’s very true that transference of energy. You know, you can feel that joy get taken from somebody else and passed on to others. You can feel some of that sorrow leave somebody else when they're able to just exhale a little bit with other people around them. And so, all of that energy ends up making its way into the set night after night. No matter what I try to do. I still find every single show I end up just randomly for whatever reason, because of what I'm feeling from them, changing a song. And it always ends up being a song that somebody comes up at the end of the night and it's like, "That song really spoke to me." Always.

Jo Reed: That's so interesting to me.

Crys Matthews: Yeah.

Jo Reed: Completely unfair question, you can just say, "Pfft," but do you feel more at home as a songwriter writing the songs, or on the stage giving it out, or is it really the same to you?

Crys Matthews: You know, for me, it's probably the same. I haven't gotten to the point where I'm selling the songs to other people to sing. So pretty much all of my songs are heard through my voice at this point. So, I guess because of that both sides of those things kind of feel the same right now.

Jo Reed: Your album, The Imagineers, your recent album. Tell me first of all the title.

Crys Matthews: Yeah, so "The Imagineers" is kind of the coupling of the left and the right brain. It is like-- I like to say it's for everybody walking that thin line between your daydreams and your day jobs. You know, you find yourself sometimes in life having to do the adult stuff, day-in/day-out, doing the 9 to 5, like you have to do those things, and you know you have to do those things. But you have this other really lovely whimsical side to yourself that just wants to do something fun or freeing, that just makes you feel good. And it's sometimes a difficult thing balancing those two sides of yourself. And so "The Imagineers" is kind of a combination of the imaginative and the engineer. And so, it is kind of the hybrid of those two things of the left and the right brain of the dreamer and the doer.

Jo Reed: Well, The Imagineers also has a title track and I’m just curious, did anything of anyone in particular inspire it?

Crys Matthews: Yeah, that song came about because of these two incredible women, one of whom is my wife, who had just a really interesting dynamic in their careers. They're both these very driven, very focused women, who also have these really beautiful whimsical sides to them. And it can be so hard to make space for that other side when you have to be so serious. When you have to be so driven, when you have to be so focused. And sometimes for women more so. And so, they kind of were the inspiration behind that song. That lyric that's pulled from an Asian proverb that says, "You're like water carving stone." You know, "You wield your power quietly."

<Matthews plays and sings excerpt from The Imagineers>

Crys Matthews: "The Imagineers," I love that song so much. And a lot of people respond to that song, so it's always nice when other people kind of feel like that, and you see, they're like, "Oh, you're speaking to me!" I get it.

Jo Reed: Well, a) it's a wonderful song, and b) it's a fabulous album! Actually, the song, "The Imagineers" leads me to asking you when were you able to start supporting yourself with music? And many congratulations--

Crys Matthews: Thank you.

Jo Reed: An artist who can support herself through her art, this is a rare thing.

Crys Matthews: Yes, it is, yeah. So, I started doing music full time about five years ago. And thankfully, with the support of my wife who has the "grown up" job, as I like to call it. And she's always been so supportive of me and just has always believed in my music and in what it is I try to do with my music. And so, it was kind of a scary conversation, because she's a Virgo, and she does not like the unknown. She likes a plan 20 years out.

Jo Reed: And what are you?

Crys Matthews: I'm an Aries, so hardheaded and just an interesting juxtaposition to her very sensible self. But she's so great, she just believes in me so much, and she just trusted and took the leap with me. And it has truly been just a beautiful, beautiful unfolding of fate doing what it will do. And literally from the time I stopped doing anything but music, it's just been a beautiful uphill wonderful escalation since then. So, I won the "New Song Music and Performance" competition. There were 5,000 entrants into that contest. The finals were at Lincoln Center. I was one of ten finalists out of 5,000 songwriters. I was thinking, I had done pretty well just to get to play at Lincoln Center, and was really excited about that. Went up to Lincoln Center and won the whole thing. And it's just been an amazing trajectory since then, just getting to play so many amazing venues. Getting to meet so many incredible people. I just got back from a riverboat cruise, literally getting to play music on a riverboat cruise from Paris to Normandy.

Jo Reed: Are you kidding me?!

Crys Matthews: I am not! It was-- you know, it's a hard gig. Hard gig! You know? Oh! <laughter> Incredible!

Jo Reed: Oh, my god!

Crys Matthews: And it's just been amazing. You know, it's a scary thing to think that you, doing something that, gosh, there must be 100,000 songwriters in America alone, you know?

Jo Reed: Oh, easily.

Crys Matthews: Yeah, you know, just thinking that you were doing something that so many other people do, and do so very well, are able to reach enough people, are able to inspire and encourage enough people that you have this beautiful support community behind you who believes in your work, and believes in your art, and is willing to make sure you get to keep a roof over your head with your art, it's incredible. I feel so very blessed and fortunate to be able to do that.

Jo Reed: What was your day job?

Crys Matthews: So actually, the most recent day job that I ever had, I actually worked at a paint store. I'm a phenomenal paint mixer, like phenomenal color matcher. The precision is amazing! So good. I miss it some days, but you know, this is better. This is more fun.

Jo Reed: You have to give up something for something. <laughter> Now how do you go about finding work for yourself? Are people reaching out to you? Do have to send things out? It's hard!

Crys Matthews: Yeah, so that's another one of the amazing things that have happened in these past, most recent two years. So, I actually got picked up by Fleming Artists. Jim Fleming has been a booking agent for almost-- well, actually I think more than three decades. He booked Ani DiFranco for 25 years. He represents Holly Near, he represents Jeff Daniels. He has phenomenal artists on this roster, and I am humbled beyond belief to be one of those. And so, it is-- it's amazing. It's amazing to be able to have somebody kind of take care of that part of it. For a while there, as an indie songwriter. You know, I was kind of wearing like five different hats. You know, I'm writing the songs, I'm singing the songs, I'm recording the songs, promoting them, I'm booking the shows, I'm promoting the shows, I'm scheduling!

Jo Reed: "I'm getting the band together, and I'm paying the band!"

Crys Matthews: Exactly! It's so overwhelming! And so, the booking component is such a load off the shoulders to have somebody else doing that in general and to have somebody that's just so amazing at it as Jim to be in my corner, it's been just a godsend.

Jo Reed: Crys, you’ve performed as part of the NEA Regional Touring Program, a few times. And I am curious about the program from your perspective, as a performer.

Crys Matthews: it's been so exciting. I've gotten to go to a couple of regions that I don't get to play very often, because some of the presenters who aren't necessarily able to have it in the budget to bring an artist that's not from closer to home in, are able to do so. And it's just been great.

Jo Reed: Who are the audiences? Is it even possible to generalize?

Crys Matthews: The communities are so different. For example, in West Virginia the community that I was playing to was so diverse in age and background, it was really almost like getting to play for a small swath of America. It was very, very cool. But all there together to experience the music and to enjoy it together. I think that's one of the beautiful things about music is that oftentimes when we're not able to find commonalities any other place, we're so very easily able to find them in music and in the way that certain things speak to us collectively, it's really beautiful to watch.

Jo Reed: We all know art is a two-way street. So, I'm wondering what you've learned as an artist going out into these communities.

Crys Matthews: So, it's been a really gentle reminder to not be presumptuous about who is in those different places to give them a chance. Just like they'll give me and my music a chance, because more often than not, I'm very pleasantly surprised, and I tend to find they are, too. It's been really, really lovely to get a chance to share my work with those different communities and have it be received with them with such open hearts and arms.

Jo Reed: And has it had any impact on the way you write or what you write?

Crys Matthews: Actually yes! My most recent song-- actually my most recent two songs-- are actually just about meeting people where they are, and about just kind of opening yourself up to life and to the experience of life. So, it's been a nice, lovely, just getting glimpses of that humanity, you know, that beautiful, beautiful humanity. Just getting to be reminded of that.

Jo Reed: Why don’t you sing one of those? This might be a good time to play.

Crys Matthews: Yeah, do a little singing. Let's sing it!

Jo Reed: Yeah, do a little singing.

Crys Matthews: So, this song is called "Exactly Where You Are," and I wrote this song after my very first train ride in the United States. And when I was 18, I took a train in Europe, but I had never been on the train here at home, and I was going on the Coast Starlight from San Francisco all the way up to Corvallis, Oregon. And it was just this lovely transformative experience. And when I got where I was going, this song was waiting for me.

<Crys sings "Exactly Where You Are">

Jo Reed: Really nice. Really nice.

Crys Matthews: Thanks a lot. Thanks so much.

Jo Reed: Thank you-- no, thank you!

Jo Reed: Is there a favorite gig that you've had?

Crys Matthews: Oh, definitely. Definitely playing the Kennedy Center was like the gig of a lifetime! <laughs>

Jo Reed: Tell me about that. I want to hear everything!

Crys Matthews: <laughs> So because of the partnership with winning New Song, the competition I was telling you about at Lincoln Center, they have a partnership with the Millennium Stage at the Kennedy Center. And so, as the reigning champion, I got a chance to play on that stage with my band. And it was the most amazing night! I was smiles from the time I woke up to the time I went to bed three days later. Just so amazing. It was incredible to get to play in that space, and such an honor. And to get to sing all original songs, to get to sing my songs. It was just amazing. That is definitely, hands down, without any hesitation, as of right now, the gig that I am most proud of is getting to play that.

Jo Reed: And do you ever cover any other songs?

Crys Matthews: Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, so I'll be at The Pub and People, which is a local spot in D.C. on Sunday, and I'll be doing some covers for that gig. I play vineyards, sometimes, that's like my bread-and-butter gig. Like my punching the clock, you know, I'll play some vineyard and things like that when I'm close to home and don't have to travel anywhere. And so those gigs are fun. You're just part of the ambience. So, folks when they're sipping on their wine and enjoying the gorgeous views out there, they just like to hear things that they're familiar with. So, I try to do everything from Otis and Aretha to Maroon 5, and contemporary stuff. So, I try to cover the gamut. It's a lot of fun.

Jo Reed: Oh, that would be. What a beautiful place to do it.

Crys Matthews: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Jo Reed: What is next?

Crys Matthews: So, I have an EP coming out called, "These Old Hands." I'm so excited about it. This is such a different project than all of the other ones that I have out. This will be my eighth project. My eighth release. And "These Old Hands" is just a collection of like breakup songs, and just heartbreak songs, but they're so beautiful! And so, I'm interested to see people's response to those songs, because they are such a departure for me, as far as the content.

Jo Reed: And are they original?

Crys Matthews: Oh, yeah!

Jo Reed: Oh, goodness!

Crys Matthews: Yeah, so but they're so beautiful. And so, I'm so excited about it, and the arrangements of some of them are so different from everything I've ever done. So, it's one of those things where it's kind of scary when you're doing something that's not like what your, quote/unquote "usual" sound is, but I never have tried to make myself box into any kind of specific genre. The song just comes out how it comes out. So sometimes it comes out like a blues song. Sometimes it comes out like Americana. Sometimes it comes out like straight country. And so, I never try to predispose myself to having a specific type of song. So that's also another interesting component to "These Old Hands." There's one song, in particular, that's up there that almost feel like old rock! And so, it's going to be so interesting. I'm so excited about it, and I'm so proud of those songs. But I'm really mostly just fascinated to see what the people who have known my music for so long think about it.

Jo Reed: What their reaction is going to be.

Crys Matthews: Yeah, yeah.

Jo Reed: Yeah, I bet, I bet.

Crys Matthews: It's exciting.

Jo Reed: Well, Crys, it was such a pleasure!

Crys Matthews: Thank you so much, Jo, it's been a delight!

Jo Reed: I really enjoyed it! Thank you so much, really!

Crys Matthews: My pleasure. <laughs>

<Matthews sings and plays guitar>

Jo Reed: That’s singer/songwriter Crys Matthews. You can find out what she’s up to at her website crysmatthews.com. And you can find out more about NEA Regional Touring Program in the current issue of NEA Arts. It’s on our website at arts.gov.

You've been listening to Art Works, produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. You can subscribe to Art Works wherever you get your podcasts, so I wish you would. And leave us a rating on Apple because it helps people to find us. For the National Endowment for the Arts, I'm Josephine Reed. Thanks for listening.

<music out>

Music Credits: . "Kyrie” from Mozart's Requiem, performed by Malcolm J. Merriweather and The Dessoff Choirs and Orchestra, performed live, 2016.

. "Laudate Dominum” from Quartre Motets composed by Marcel Dupre, performed by Malcolm J. Merriweather and The Dessoff Choirs, performed live, 2017.

. "Easter” from Five Mystical Songs composed by Vaughn Williams" performed live by Malcolm J. Merriweather.

"Hymne National" perfomed by Voices of Haiti, performed live, 2017.

"Oh Freedom", traditional, performed by Malcolm J. Merriweather and The Dessoff Choirs.

*Music up*

Malcom Merriweather:I love the aspect of collaboration when I’m working with an ensemble. There is this continuum of energy and flow of ideas and music when I’m on the podium, conducting. And there’s nothing like that experience of starting a group with an unfamiliar piece of music, and bringing them through the process of a performance.

*Music up*

Jo Reed: That’s singer, educator, conductor and music director of the Dessoff Choirs, Malcolm Merriweather, and this is Art Works the weekly podcast from the National Endowment for the Arts. I’m Josephine Reed.

It’s hard to know what is more impressive about Malcolm J. Merriweather—his multi-faceted talent or his boundless energy and deep focus. Malcolm is only in his early 30s, but a person twice his age would be thrilled with his accomplishments. He has two masters’ degrees from Eastman School of music and a doctorate from the Manhattan School of Music. He has a brilliant career as a singer, he is director of Choral studies at Brooklyn College, artist-in-residence at Union Theological Seminary, artistic director of Voices of Haiti, a sixty-voice children’s choir, and he is conductor and artistic director of the renowned Dessoff Choirs. I’m going to speak to Malcolm about all aspects of his career, but I’m going to begin with the Dessoff Choirs, which has been called one of the great amateur choruses of our time. Begun in 1924, the choirs are composed of world class avocational singers who are known for their performances of choral work from pre-Baroque to the 21^st century—mixing classical choral pieces with contemporary work. In 2016, Malcolm J. Merriweather became the group’s ninth music director…adding that jewel to his diverse career. And it’s quite the task since the Dessoff Choirs consists of three groups of singers.

Malcolm Merriweather: We have a chamber group of about 20 singers, a core group of 60 members, and a symphonic choir of up to 200 members. And we utilize these various choirs for different projects: symphonic projects, chamber music projects, and-- but the core choir rehearses weekly, throughout our season.

Jo Reed: And who are the people who make up the choir?

Malcolm Merriweather: They are doctors, they are lawyers, they’re teachers. Many are retired. We have college students. It’s a really... a diverse group, and our members come from various backgrounds.

Jo Reed: Besides a good voice, what do you look for when you’re choosing choir members?

Malcolm Merriweather: Well, of course, a good voice is primary, but in an audition, I’m not so much interested in perfection; I’m interested in how a singer thinks. So, in any given audition, there would be vocalese, and also sight-reading, and pitch-matching, and pitch memory exercises. So I’m interested in how singers function and try to figure out errors, and how their ears collaborate with their other musicianship skills to go through this audition process.

Jo Reed: What is the job of the conductor, in this particular instance, when you’re conducting a choir?

Malcolm Merriweather: The-- it’s multidimensional. Of course, my primary responsibility is leading weekly rehearsals and leading the group in concerts, but a lot of planning goes into preparing for those rehearsals. I, of course, select the music for a given season, I audition the membership, and I get to do fun interviews like this <laughs>, to talk about the choir and its mission. But it’s really multifaceted. I really serve as the face of the organization, and the artistic voice. My goal is to inspire each of our singers towards a common goal and a common mission in a given piece of music. We have the wishes of a composer written down, and it’s my job to make that music come off the page, and come alive.

*Music up*

Jo Reed: What do think the key is to live performance?

Malcolm Merriweather: The key to live performance, I think, is being in the moment, but also being a step ahead, and anticipating. I teach at Brooklyn College, and one of the skills that I’m always encouraging our students to hone is to anticipate, whether it be a page turn, whether it be a rest, whether it be a rhythm. Because if you’re experiencing the music as it’s happening, you’re already too late. So, in live performance, I always try to be a couple of steps ahead, as the director of the choir, and encourage them to be a step ahead of where they need to be.

Jo Reed: You’ve said that you really want to connect with the audience, and the days of the audience sitting in rows, looking at whoever is performing on a stage, are rapidly coming to an end.

Malcolm Merriweather: Absolutely. In my role as music director of the Dessoff Choirs, I’ve really tried to challenge those norms by placing the choir in positions throughout our performance venue, around the audience, in a quadrophonic fashion, just to really break down that barrier of audience and performer. I think that’s really critical to keep our audiences engaged, and the feedback has been really outstanding.

Jo Reed: How did you come to Dessoff?

Malcolm Merriweather: It’s interesting. Before I became music director, I was a frequent soloist, as a baritone soloist. So I wasn’t a stranger to the group, and when the position became vacant, I jumped at the opportunity to apply, and, lucky for me, I was successful. <laughs>

Jo Reed: <laughs> Now, you’re a singer, a conductor, and an educator.

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes, that’s correct.

Jo Reed: Tell me when you began to sing.

Malcolm Merriweather: Well, my mother always tells the story that I was singing as a baby. My formal singing began as a chorister at St. Paul’s Cathedral in Buffalo, New York, in their Men and Boys Choir, where I participated in two to three weekly services at the cathedral, and numerous rehearsals. It’s a very serious and rigorous program. And I stayed with that choir through my voice change, until I was a senior in high school.

Jo Reed: What do you remember best from that time?

Malcolm Merriweather: I can remember just being completely mesmerized and entranced by the colors of the pipe organ, and the combination of the organ with the voices. And I’ll never forget my first performance with a baroque orchestra, and seeing the baroque violone and the bassoon, and hearing these instruments, and watching and observing these musicians play. And it just-- it struck a chord within me.

Jo Reed: And I would also think it would give you a sense of what that life might be like, and the kind of discipline and rigor that you need to bring to any performing art.

Malcolm Merriweather: Absolutely. I can just remember observing the time and the concentration of the orchestra members, of my director, of the organist, and it has certainly been a thread throughout my career to look back on those experiences and think back to what these directors and performers gave to me, as a young child.

Jo Reed: And did you know right away that this is what you wanted to do?

Malcolm Merriweather: No, not exactly. I knew that I loved music. I knew that I loved performing. But it wasn’t until it came time to apply for colleges, and I began auditioning at different schools and received, you know, really positive feedback, that I thought to myself, “Oh, this could be my career. This is what I could do for a living.” And after that point, I really never looked back.

*Music up*

Jo Reed: When did you add conducting to your arsenal?

Malcolm Merriweather: I began conducting at Syracuse University, and it’s something that... I’ve always been curious, and I’ve always never been afraid to take opportunities. And it was an opportunity that really fell into my lap. I was singing in an a cappella group, and we needed a music director, and I was elected the music director, and I really enjoyed that leadership aspect and that collaborative role, working with ensembles after taking a conducting class and got a master’s degree in conducting. And I think everything in my undergraduate education prepared me to be a conductor, from ear training, from studying piano, and eventually studying organ, and of course my private voice lessons. All of these aspects are important when leading a group, to prepare the music and prepare each of the vocal parts, to understand the role of the instruments in relation to the vocal lines and harmony and rhythm. And it’s complex, but it’s wonderful.

Jo Reed: <laughs> Now, tell me what you get from conducting that you don’t get from singing, and vice versa. I imagine they complement each other beautifully, but I imagine each gives you something that the other, perhaps, doesn’t.

Malcolm Merriweather: Oh, absolutely. I love the aspect of collaboration when I’m working with an ensemble. There is this continuum of energy and flow of ideas and music when I’m on the podium, conducting. And there’s nothing like that experience of starting a group with an unfamiliar piece of music, and bringing them through the process of a performance. And the performance is only, really, ten percent, for me. Usually, the rehearsal process leading up to the concert is the best part. And the concert is really sort of the icing on the cake. And as a singer, sometimes it can be pretty solitary. I mean, if I’m preparing for a solo gig, I’m practicing at home by myself, and then that collaborative aspect comes in at the end. You’re right, they’re certainly opposite, but they’re definitely complementary.

Jo Reed: Now, what do you like to sing? What is your voice best suited for? I understand that’s two completely different questions, but what do you like to sing, and what is your voice best suited for?

Malcolm Merriweather: I love to sing concert music: oratorios, requiems... <laughs> and the great choral orchestral works that have choirs. And I guess that’s not a surprise. And my voice is-- I’m a high baritone, so it’s best suited for the music of Vaughan Williams and Brahms, and really some Handel oratorios. Things like that, are sort of what I sink my teeth into.

Jo Reed: Now, I saw you with Dessoff, singing “Oh Freedom!”, and you sang the first verse, and then you conducted the choir.

*Excerpt of Merriweather singing “Oh Freedom!”*

Jo Reed: How unusual is that?

Malcolm Merriweather: It is... it is-- some people might say it is unusual, during our time, for the conductor to sort of step out and perform. But when you look back to the 19^th century, to composers like Beethoven, who would often play piano concertos and also conduct, and Liszt, and Brahms, it was not that foreign for conductors to showcase their skills as a performer. So, I have made a choice to showcase my duality as a singer and a conductor, and I think it brings an interesting texture to concerts, for audience members to hear solo voice, and also then to hear a choir, and see my role change in a matter of minutes when that occurs.

*Excerpt of “Oh Freedom!”*

Jo Reed: I thought it was actually quite wonderful, and I was thinking about, “When have I seen that?” And again, I-- maybe with a pianist. But I think-- like Daniel Barenboim.

Malcolm Merriweather: Oh, of course. Yes. It’s not so common with singers as conductors. Yeah. So it’s-- it may be my niche.

Jo Reed: Yeah. I liked it. It was great.

Malcolm Merriweather: Thank you.

Jo Reed: What is unique about the voice, as an instrument?

Malcolm Merriweather: I think that the voice is the most expressive voice-- excuse me. I think that the voice is the most expressive instrument, because each color, each vowel, each consonant is... has life through air, and through breath. Now, each human voice is also inherently different, so there are so many colors on the spectrum when I think about the voices in the Dessoff Choir. And I’ve gotten to know all of those voices very well, and their strengths and the capabilities, their strongs, their softs, the different articulation, the range, and it never amazes me what we are able to accomplish.

Jo Reed: Well, you’re also the artistic director of Voices of Haiti.

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes, I am.

Jo Reed: Tell me about that program.

Malcolm Merriweather: I founded Voices of Haiti at the request of the Andrea Bocelli Foundation, in 2016-- January 2016. And it is a program that serves 60 children in Port-au-Prince, who are disadvantaged. Many come from one of the largest slums in Port-au-Prince. And the program is designed to bring some dignity and hope to their lives, as they face extreme social, political, and many other challenges in their lives. So they meet on Saturday mornings. They receive breakfast, and they have vocaleses. I’ve designed a program where they’re learning how to read music, and we have solfège study, and also—

Jo Reed: Back up. What is that?

Malcolm Merriweather: Solfège-- it’s a way of reading music: <sings> do re mi fa so la ti do ti la so fa mi re do. You may recognize it from--

Jo Reed: That, I do. Yes.

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes.

<both laugh>

Malcolm Merriweather: So... the program is comprehensive. They also receive lunch. Nutrition is really important for this program.

Jo Reed: Oh, I would think. Yeah.

Malcolm Merriweather: They have come a long way in two years, and it’s one of the great joys of my life to travel to Port-au-Prince about once per month-- sometimes more-- to work with them. And when I’m not there, there are two local musicians who are working with them, and they send me recordings of the rehearsals, and I critique the rehearsals and give feedback, and send those notes back to them. It’s definitely what I call a passion project, because it is impacting the greater world through the gift of music.

Jo Reed: Their singing is so beautiful.

Malcolm Merriweather: Thank you.

*Music up*

Malcolm Merriweather: And I feel-- sometimes I feel-- many times, all the time, I feel like I’m the luckiest guy in the world, to be able to go and work with them, because it is a-- it’s a great joy.

Jo Reed: And you got to go to Rome and actually sing for the Pope, but then meet him.

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes, that’s true. We brought all 60 children across the Atlantic to perform with Andrea Bocelli at his summer festival in Lajatico, and we were able to go to the Vatican, and we were received by the Pope, and we performed “Ave Maria” for him, and also two traditional Haitian folk songs. And after our performance, he greeted every child, and he also greeted me, and that was a great and supreme honor.

Jo Reed: That must’ve been such an extraordinary experience for those kids.

Malcolm Merriweather: Absolutely. Many of the children-- I should say, all of the children-- are deeply religious. Many are Catholic, and there are some that are Protestant, and there are some who practice voodoo. So it is-- it’s a really diverse group of religious practices.

Jo Reed: And they also perform in Haiti, of course, and so--

Malcolm Merriweather: Oh, of course.

Jo Reed: So their parents get to see them as well as their friends and other relatives.

Malcolm Merriweather: Absolutely. We have designed a program that is based on season so we have done Christmas presentations, we’ve done Mother’s Day presentations, we always have a presentation at the end of the year-- at the end of the school year in June, and parents and family members, they flock to these performances. I mean it’s-- the support from the community is overwhelming.

Jo Reed: And what’s your hopes for Voices of Haiti?

Malcolm Merriweather: My hope is that these children can always find a sense of expression through their music. Because I think, in poverty-stricken environments, like Port au Prince and some of the slums that they live in -- they’re focused on survival. They’re focused on water, and finding food and clothes, and where the next meal is going to come from. So this program strives to really provide a sense of hope and solace amidst really, really difficult circumstances.

Jo Reed: Yeah. It’s like you need bread, but you need roses, too, like the old Union song.

Malcolm Merriweather: Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Jo Reed: Back to the United States for a moment.

Malcolm Merriweather: Of course.

Jo Reed: What about your goals for Dessoff? Where would you like to see the choirs in a decade?

Malcolm Merriweather: That’s a really great question because like I said we’re 93 years old and we’re approaching our centenary in just under a decade, and my goals as a music director is certainly to build upon the rich history of working with contemporary composers and we’re really embarking on that next season. We’re focusing on the bicentennial of Walt Whitman and there’s a lot of choral music that has utilized Whitman’s poetry and Dessoff is actually commissioning five major composers to write new choral works to contribute to that bank of Walt Whitman choral music. And this is an opportunity to really add and build upon the history of performing contemporary new works.

Jo Reed: That’s so interesting. You know, Alex Ross wrote an article in the New Yorker maybe few years ago about why concerts stopped consisting of contemporary classical work

Malcolm Merriweather: Mhm!

Jo Reed: And he pointed to Beethoven. This is a gross simplification, but Ross said that Beethoven was so venerated, he shaped what we think about classical music and cast such a long and deep shadow that it obscured the work of contemporary composers.

Malcolm Merriweather: Well, yeah, I think that’s a very good point that we are performing-- most institutions-- music institutions are performing music by dead white men and-- while there is music being created all around us, and it is certainly a goal of mine to explore this music while the composers are still with us and there’s such a just bevy of composers that are based in the New York area, the tristate area. So I hope to take advantage of that opportunity with Dessoff, and also continue to provide a place in the New York choral scene for singers who might not necessarily wish to sing the big choral orchestral works and the canon of Verdi “Requiem” and Bach’s B Minor Mass and who are looking for more of a mid-size choir experience.

Jo Reed: You’ve said that you’re trying to keep your foot in the world of traditional music but at the same time work toward being edgier.

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes. And with that-- with the more traditional music is reimagining that music and performing it in sort of-- I mentioned this early-- a multidimensional fashion so that we can break down that barrier between our audiences and not just standing on stage and singing it but perhaps joining together with a high-school choir and-- to create an intergenerational opportunity and share that music with the future of choral music.

*Music up*

Jo Reed: What do you think draws people to chorus?

Malcolm Merriweather: I think that our-- especially our singers in Dessoff they-- we rehearse on Monday evenings from seven to ten. Many come after a long workday and it is a way to express themselves. It is a way to relax perhaps, even though sometimes it’s not that relaxing because I-- we are really working hard to prepare Bach motets in seven weeks is no small feat, but I think that each and every member comes to that rehearsal and makes a commitment to a season because of an underlying passion; it comes from an experience of growing up and singing in a church choir or singing in a high-school choir or being in a musical or having their grandmother sing to them as a child. And it’s always interesting to speak with our choir members about their experience with each individual piece.

Jo Reed: Of music that you’re preparing.

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes, our season is diverse in its repertoire so there’s a lot of different viewpoints and I think every singer offers a different view of appreciation, and they’re not afraid to let me know if they don’t appreciate something. I think many singers when we started “Little Match Girl Passion” it’s a minimalist piece and there’s lots of recurring figures and rhythmic cells that are tricky and cumbersome and they didn’t necessarily like it at the beginning of the process, but by the end, by the concert, by the dress rehearsal it all made sense.

Jo Reed: You’re also director of choirs at Brooklyn College.

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes, that’s correct.

Jo Reed: What do you think is important to impart to those students?

Malcolm Merriweather: That’s a really good question. There are so many things <laughs> but I think at the top of my list is being a well-rounded musician, not only being a consummate singer but having skills as a keyboard player, being able to perhaps conduct a little bit because to have a career as a professional musician I believe that a modern professional musician needs to be multifaceted to really make it. So at Brooklyn College we are not just singing and not just doing opera or grand opera; we’re doing contemporary opera. We are doing chamber music, we are doing choral orchestral works, and we are also working with career-development specialists because it’s-- there’s so much that needs to be done and for an undergraduate four years goes by in the blink of an eye. So I always encourage my students to take advantage of every opportunity, whether it be a master class and whether it be an opportunity to go to a performance and not just vocal performances. Our students regularly attend wind ensemble performances at the school and performances by orchestra and also to expand outside the idiom of classical music and get comfortable with jazz.

Jo Reed: Do you like jazz?

Malcolm Merriweather: Oh, I love jazz.

Jo Reed: Who do you like?

Malcolm Merriweather: Well, one of my favorite jazz composers is my colleague at Brooklyn College, Arturo O’Farrill, who is the director of the Afro-Cuban Jazz Orchestra.

Jo Reed: Here at the NEA we give out our Jazz Master awards every year. And It’s a lifetime achievement award in jazz and of the 2018 NEA Jazz Masters is Todd Barkan actually produced Arturo’s album The Offense of the Drum which won a Grammy Award.

Malcolm Merriweather: Oh, okay. Well, I’m not surprised.

Jo Reed: How long after you got out of school was it before you could support yourself through music?

Malcolm Merriweather: I guess the second I graduated <laughs> when I—

Jo Reed: You never had to have a day job?

Malcolm Merriweather: No, I’ve always been interested in teaching and-- but teaching through performance and when I graduated from the Eastman School of Music I earned a position with the New York Choral Society and I moved to New York and began singing professionally and eventually doing some teaching at some community music schools. And then I did go back to school to get my doctorate, but by that time I was working at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine as the associate choirmaster. And so to answer your question I- I’ve really just been in music.

Jo Reed: Good for you. That’s so rare.

Malcolm Merriweather: It is.

Jo Reed: It’s so hard to make a living in the arts.

Malcolm Merriweather: It really is, it really is and I always tell my students it’s possible but I’m not just a singer, I’m not just a conductor, and I take pride in all of the professions that I work in within music.

Jo Reed: What do you listen to?

Malcolm Merriweather: What do I listen to? Oh. I spend a lot of time on the train. I live in Harlem and I teach at Brooklyn College so I have about an hour-and-a-half commute so I listen to a lot. I love Mahler so I listen to Mahler symphonies. I love lieder; I listen to a lot of lieder. I am-- just became a subscriber to Spotify and I do listen to pop music. I just put on a playlist that they’ve sort of prescribed and sort of listen to that as well. But on any given day it could be Brahms, it could be Beethoven piano sonatas, Bach; it’s sort of up in the air.

Jo Reed: Just flip a coin, and you’re fine on the subway listening to it. Do you have noise-canceling headphones?

Malcolm Merriweather: Yes, and it’s-- it is-- it’s definitely needed on the subway so-- it’s a long commute so I’m happy to have music.

Jo Reed: I lived in Brooklyn and I went to Columbia

Malcolm Merriweather: Wow. So you understand that commute.

Jo Reed: - so boy do I know that commute like the back of my hand. And I think that’s a good place to leave it Malcolm, on the mighty “A” train. I want to thank you so much for giving me your time

Malcolm Merriweather: And thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure to speak with you.

*Music up*

Jo Reed: That is singer, educator, conductor, artistic director of Voices of Haiti and music director of the Dessoff Choirs, Malcolm J. Merriweather. Find out more about his wonderful work at dessoff.org or at voicesofhaiti.org.

You’ve been listening to Art Works produced at the National Endowment for the Arts. You can subscribe to Art Works where ever you get your podcasts—so please do and leave us a rating on Apple—it does help people to find us.

For the National Endowment for the Arts, I'm Josephine Reed. Thanks for listening.

*Music fades out*

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